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  #1  
Old 02-20-2013
Jason @ 281m's Avatar
Jason @ 281m Jason @ 281m is offline
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Default Our opinion about the Whiteline Watts Link

Many of you have called us in the last few weeks about the Whiteline Watts Links and asked for our opinion on them, so we decided to post a thread voicing our position on the subject.

First off I want to say we really like the design and quality of many of the Whiteline products and are seriously considering carrying some of them. This is no attempt to defame Whiteline or anyone selling their products...as mentioned we plan on carrying some of their products after we review them in depth and track test them against other offerings we have. The new head person of Whiteline and I have had several long discussions in person about bringing their products here to 281 Motorsports and offering them to our customers.

I got together with the crew chief for an S197 professional race team and asked about this specific design. He has an incredible knowledge of the chassis in question and specifically with Watts-Links systems for these cars. This is the very same crew chief who dials in ALL of the coil-over systems, watts links, corner scaling, chassis set-ups, and complete suspensions we install here on site at our facility.

Here is his response in its entirety:

“Coming from a professional racing career viewpoint and having installed literally hundreds of suspension systems from various manufacturers, the Whiteline product does have a few flaws. The roll center is only adjustable by their settings +/- 1-2” from stock. The typical street coil-over prepped Mustang and most of the competitive S197 chassis we work with are outside of their specs. That being said, why should the end user be forced to design an entire suspension around a manufacturers recommendations for a “street car”?? The rear roll center dictates the front and so on.

The Whiteline bushings are far too compliant for heavy duty use and if you decide to ever track the car, you are going to be forced to buy a different unit since they do not have a rod end option. As for the system itself, the other issue is the driver side upright. The fact that you have a 4000lb vehicle shifting ALL its weight onto a bracket that is NOT welded onto the frame is frightening to say the least. You have two simple vertical bolts going into the frame and a single shear bracket hanging off. Now this bracket should serve a purpose if it was being bolted to a rigid factory tab however the real answer is that the bracket it bolts to was never designed for side loading at all. It was in fact designed for the rear sway bar which loads in a vertical direction. Also please note the upright support rod does NOT triangulate onto the sheer load point of the Watts link’s parallel arms. Instead it sits several inches ABOVE the load point creating a weak point and a serious cause for concern. A proper system would attach at the lowest point and tie into the arm bolt itself, because as we all know, a triangle is the strongest geometric shape.

So there is an educated 2 cents (plus or minus a dollar or two) on this new product and how it relates to street, weekend warrior, and track duty S197 vehicles.”
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1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
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Last edited by Jason @ 281m; 02-20-2013 at 09:13 PM.
  #2  
Old 02-20-2013
Red_Devil Red_Devil is offline
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And who was this expert? Cause I am sure I already know...
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  #3  
Old 02-21-2013
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While opinions and educated guesses are great, I think we can all agree that real world experiences are better.



I saw the Whiteline Watts Link at SEMA 2011 and it looked promising. It was different than the plethora of other Watts Link kits out there from the typical Mustang parts sources like Griggs, Cortex, Steeda and the rest. I liked that the WL unit wasn't equipped with metal rod ends for the lateral links, plus that it was a completely bolt-on kit. The bolt on Watts link tower gave me pause, but the rest of the kit looked so well made that was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


As an engineer myself I appreciated the custom cast aluminum differential cover (with ports for a diff cooler + bearing pre-load studs) they went to the trouble of making, instead of using an existing cast cover like the aftermarket TA unit, or making a CNC cover like the Cortex (which is also quite nice). Making a custom casting takes some $$$ and engineering effort, and I know because I worked in an investment casting foundry as the plant engineer many years ago.


This is not stripped, ultra-lightweight Mustang, but a full weight streetable car, tipping the scales at nearly 3800 pounds with driver

As you can see in my images posted at the top, the Watts Link "propeller" mount has two locations for mounting on the Whiteline cover, which does change the roll center. While it would be nice to see more adjustments, in practice it works very well within these boundaries. Adding a huge range of adjustments doesn't necessarily make something better, but it would make it more costly, heavier, and likely have a link mount taller tower and tighter fit.


Left: A lot of parts in a tight space, but it works. Right: Winning Unlimited RWD at GTA Round 5 @ TMS

We tested one of the first production Whiteline Watts Link kits in August 2012 and have since added Whiteline LCAs, LCA relocation brackets, Upper Control Arm, and their front and rear swaybars plus endlinks. I've been very happy with the results on our 2011 Mustang - winning races and needing zero maintenance.

This Mustang is raced in SCCA ESP class (autocrossing), NASA TT3 class (road course time trial), Global Time Attack (Unlimited RWD), and has won races in all of these formats with the Whiteline Watts Link unit. This isn't a run of the mil Mustang with just some basic bolt-ons, as we're running Moton Motorsport 2-way coilovers, 18x11" front and 18x12" rear Forgestar wheels, and 315/30/18 Hoosier A6 rubber. At NASA road race weekends we regularly beat the lap records for American Iron race cars by 2-3 seconds, so we're not just rolling around slowly, either.


Click above to see in-car from a NASA Time Trial event with this unit (beat old track record by 3 sec)

And this is a street driven car also - we swap the wheels and wing and my wife daily drives the car. She's put 5000 miles on the Whiteline parts commuting to work and such. Not a peep of noise, no squeaks or pops or bangs like you;d see with a rod-end equipped Watts Link kit. The old Panhard bar we had on the car was a "Del-Sphere" equipped unit and it mad the most god-awful racket, but the elasomer bushings Whiteline uses are silent. And they don't have "excessive deflection", because if they did the 12" wide wheels we have stuffed under the rear fenders would be all mangled from hitting the body, but they aren't.


Left: Whiteline equipped Mustang winning ESP-L class and getting 4th in ESP @ 2012 Solo Nationals. Right: Winning TT3 class at NASA @ MSR-Houston

Anyway, just wanted to post up some actual results from using this Whiteline Watts Link kit on an S197 Mustang, in both competition and with street use for the past 7 months of it being on the market. 6 track weekends, 5 autocrosses, two drivers, and thousands of street miles. My technicians here at Vorshlag inspect everything on the car before each race, paint-mark the hardware to see any possible movement, and we've been watching the bolted-on Watts Link mount towers closely. No cracks, no hardware has backed out, no weird deflections or contact, and the bushings still look rock solid.

Cheers,
__________________
Terry Fair - owner at Vorshlag Motorsports.
2011 Mustang GT, NASA TT3 Class. Moton Motorsport 2-Ways, Vorshlag camber plates
18x11F/18x12R Forgestar F14 wheels, 315/30/18 Hoosier A6, APR GTC-300
  #4  
Old 02-21-2013
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JimIII@JDM JimIII@JDM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Devil View Post
And who was this expert? Cause I am sure I already know...
Seriously, what Jason just said is the most rediculous statement I have ever heard. Jason would have to source his information out because his lack of experience and knowledge on the subject is limited. I appreciate your 2 cents, but thats about all its worth Jason

The White line bushing design is superior to any bushing on todays market, I can't tell you have many cars with other brand bushings/suspension I've had come in our shop that have bushing cracked and crumbled because of the cheap/poor design. The white line bushings are more durable and longer lasting than these cheaper bushings commonly found in other brands, including Saleen suspension components like their lower control arms your selling. Now the other option is using a solid bushing that will make more road noise and roughness, something ford refers to this as NVH. Noise, Vibration, and Harness. Who wants a Rod end design on a street car? I tell you what not many people because they will complain of noise (NVH) and clunking in their rear end suspension.

If your using the watts link particularly for a race car your obviously not using stock suspension on the rest of the car. Id say about 85% of my customers have lower suspension or other after market suspension components.

If we wanted to sell our customers a race car suspension with spherical rod ends, solid bushings, and a not so friendly design for street use I would find something else. But for the hands down best and most reliable design in product and their bushings. White line wins, it beats any other suspension on the market. And coming from a SHOP who installs, races, and tests the products they sell! Believe me that this is the ONLY Watts Link JDM Engineering will sell.
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Last edited by JimIII@JDM; 02-21-2013 at 03:59 PM.
  #5  
Old 02-21-2013
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Now I'm totally confused about which one to get.
  #6  
Old 02-21-2013
Jason @ 281m's Avatar
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JimIII@JDM,

I kind of expected a rude response from you, but I’ll leave it at that. To respond to your statement, yes I did outsource our statement/opinion to a member of our staff who has more years of experience then I do in relation to suspension design, VERY similar to when you ask your father questions because they are above your expertise. We strive to employ the best people possible in all areas that we work in so that we have a good source of reference for nearly every circumstance that we encounter.

I would have to agree that the Whiteline bushing is certainly amongst the best – no dispute there, but I’m not sure why this is the basis of your argument. The lower control arms that we are selling branded “Saleen” are old inventory that we outfitted with BMR Urethane bushings that we have upmost confidence in.

You refer to selling customers spherical rod ends for street cars, and that is something we wouldn’t do either. What we are saying is, with relation to how the customer intends on using his/her car we base those recommendations on that, and THERE IS a product out there that offers both spherical rod end (heim joints), and a Urethane bushing version which has zero NVH that has a better design. NVH is used to scare customers away from rod end suspension parts. The new, best rod ends manufactured today use a full Teflon liner to prevent NVH. Any suspension engineer worth working with can tell you that. Our team has worked with plenty of World Challenge vehicles and dozens of PROPERLY set up street cars using rods ends with literally NO rattles or noises.

As for your 85% comment, I would also state that we have just as many lowered vehicles out there and this is exactly our point, WHY would an installer or manufacturer require an end user to be forced to set up their entire car based on such a limited range of roll center.

Please also advise those reading this thread as to why you didn’t come to the defense of the design with regards to welding and side loading of the driver side upright? Even Fair (from Vorshlag) commented that he said that tower gave him “pause” and that before each race they’ve “been watching the bolted-on Watts link mount towers closely”.

“The bolt on Watts link tower gave me pause, but the rest of the kit looked so well made that was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt”……….later stated “My technicians here at Vorshlag inspect everything on the car before each race, paint-mark the hardware to see any possible movement, and we've been watching the bolted-on Watts Link mount towers closely”

With relation to the roll center adjustability, it would be nicer to see more adjustment. But to the support of this, it does cost more money to make good parts, but the end user pricing is still the same, the dealer just doesn’t make as much profit.

“While it would be nice to see more adjustments, in practice it works very well within these boundaries. Adding a huge range of adjustments doesn't necessarily make something better, but it would make it more costly, heavier, and likely have a link mount taller tower and tighter fit.”


In closing, I started this thread stating that Whiteline makes good products – you obviously missed that. What I am saying is why would you want to sell a customer a good product, when there is a better product out there that is engineered stronger, has the full adjustability for setting the exact roll center your car needs, comes in a Quality urethane bushing version for street/track use AND has the option of upgrading from bushing to spherical rod end if the customer should decide to do some serious track time, AND is the EXACT same price??
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NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505

1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf


CA's ONLY Authorized Speedlab Center
"Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!"


Last edited by Jason @ 281m; 02-21-2013 at 05:16 PM.
  #7  
Old 02-21-2013
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This is starting to sound like an east coast/ west coast rapper battle!
  #8  
Old 02-21-2013
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Originally Posted by crucianpilot View Post
This is starting to sound like an east coast/ west coast rapper battle!
Lol!
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  #9  
Old 02-21-2013
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Terry "Fair",

Thank you for your very diplomatic approach to your sharing your uses and experiences with the Whiteline product.

We have not used it, so its nice to hear your feedback, and congrats on your track wins!! Real World experiences do have a very valid use in everything we (the entire industry) do which is appreciated to know what you've seen.

Our opinion and point was simply based upon the design of the WL Watts. And at the end of the day, even the things you noted are not in another Watts link that is available. We understand you are sponsored by Whiteline and appreciate that. We think the WL Watts is a nice piece, but we stand firm in believing there is a better option for the same price to the end user.

From our point of view, thank you for your input on this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
While opinions and educated guesses are great, I think we can all agree that real world experiences are better.



I saw the Whiteline Watts Link at SEMA 2011 and it looked promising. It was different than the plethora of other Watts Link kits out there from the typical Mustang parts sources like Griggs, Cortex, Steeda and the rest. I liked that the WL unit wasn't equipped with metal rod ends for the lateral links, plus that it was a completely bolt-on kit. The bolt on Watts link tower gave me pause, but the rest of the kit looked so well made that was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


As an engineer myself I appreciated the custom cast aluminum differential cover (with ports for a diff cooler + bearing pre-load studs) they went to the trouble of making, instead of using an existing cast cover like the aftermarket TA unit, or making a CNC cover like the Cortex (which is also quite nice). Making a custom casting takes some $$$ and engineering effort, and I know because I worked in an investment casting foundry as the plant engineer many years ago.


This is not stripped, ultra-lightweight Mustang, but a full weight streetable car, tipping the scales at nearly 3800 pounds with driver

As you can see in my images posted at the top, the Watts Link "propeller" mount has two locations for mounting on the Whiteline cover, which does change the roll center. While it would be nice to see more adjustments, in practice it works very well within these boundaries. Adding a huge range of adjustments doesn't necessarily make something better, but it would make it more costly, heavier, and likely have a link mount taller tower and tighter fit.


Left: A lot of parts in a tight space, but it works. Right: Winning Unlimited RWD at GTA Round 5 @ TMS

We tested one of the first production Whiteline Watts Link kits in August 2012 and have since added Whiteline LCAs, LCA relocation brackets, Upper Control Arm, and their front and rear swaybars plus endlinks. I've been very happy with the results on our 2011 Mustang - winning races and needing zero maintenance.

This Mustang is raced in SCCA ESP class (autocrossing), NASA TT3 class (road course time trial), Global Time Attack (Unlimited RWD), and has won races in all of these formats with the Whiteline Watts Link unit. This isn't a run of the mil Mustang with just some basic bolt-ons, as we're running Moton Motorsport 2-way coilovers, 18x11" front and 18x12" rear Forgestar wheels, and 315/30/18 Hoosier A6 rubber. At NASA road race weekends we regularly beat the lap records for American Iron race cars by 2-3 seconds, so we're not just rolling around slowly, either.


Click above to see in-car from a NASA Time Trial event with this unit (beat old track record by 3 sec)

And this is a street driven car also - we swap the wheels and wing and my wife daily drives the car. She's put 5000 miles on the Whiteline parts commuting to work and such. Not a peep of noise, no squeaks or pops or bangs like you;d see with a rod-end equipped Watts Link kit. The old Panhard bar we had on the car was a "Del-Sphere" equipped unit and it mad the most god-awful racket, but the elasomer bushings Whiteline uses are silent. And they don't have "excessive deflection", because if they did the 12" wide wheels we have stuffed under the rear fenders would be all mangled from hitting the body, but they aren't.


Left: Whiteline equipped Mustang winning ESP-L class and getting 4th in ESP @ 2012 Solo Nationals. Right: Winning TT3 class at NASA @ MSR-Houston

Anyway, just wanted to post up some actual results from using this Whiteline Watts Link kit on an S197 Mustang, in both competition and with street use for the past 7 months of it being on the market. 6 track weekends, 5 autocrosses, two drivers, and thousands of street miles. My technicians here at Vorshlag inspect everything on the car before each race, paint-mark the hardware to see any possible movement, and we've been watching the bolted-on Watts Link mount towers closely. No cracks, no hardware has backed out, no weird deflections or contact, and the bushings still look rock solid.

Cheers,
__________________
Jason | 281 Motorsports

NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505

1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf


CA's ONLY Authorized Speedlab Center
"Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!"

  #10  
Old 02-21-2013
Jason @ 281m's Avatar
Jason @ 281m Jason @ 281m is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crucianpilot View Post
This is starting to sound like an east coast/ west coast rapper battle!
Nothing like that on our end, just stating our position. If someone wants to bring insults and not meet us within the "community" forum with an open conversation to discuss opinions and facts - their on their own.
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Jason | 281 Motorsports

NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505

1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf


CA's ONLY Authorized Speedlab Center
"Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!"

  #11  
Old 02-21-2013
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OneQwkStang OneQwkStang is offline
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Ding ding ding....in this corner....kidding!
  #12  
Old 02-21-2013
Jason @ 281m's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneQwkStang View Post
Ding ding ding....in this corner....kidding!
Andre, be nice! There is already to much emotion being made just in our simple opinion.
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Jason | 281 Motorsports

NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505

1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf


CA's ONLY Authorized Speedlab Center
"Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!"

  #13  
Old 02-21-2013
DrumSTW3 DrumSTW3 is offline
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Default Call me crazy, but...

This is the first negative thing I have ever seen or heard about Whiteline's products. Now I'm not a genius, but it seems to me that when someone speaks negatively from the point of view of an unnamed "source", it is instantly discredited. This is especially true when the person "relaying the message" and the person selling the product being badmouthed have a less than awesome history. Jason, this is ridiculous. Somehow you managed to find the only person that is willing to talk crap about the company Jared works for, but of course they aren't willing to put their own name on this so called review. This has zero credit in my mind.

Last edited by DrumSTW3; 02-21-2013 at 06:28 PM. Reason: clarification
  #14  
Old 02-21-2013
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Jason @ 281m Jason @ 281m is offline
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Again, we arent saying anything negative about Whiteline. There were several members that asked our opinion, we answered. We are entitled to our position and opinion. We compared one product to another, simple as that. When Whitelines Sales Manager asked me why I hadnt been selling there product, I told him the same thing...I like the features and benefits of another product, better.

There is no unnamed source here, and only Jared asked his identity...I could care-less what Jared wants or ask's for. Our staff is very busy working on cars and I can certainly give my point of view. This is not a dumping ground for "talking crap" and it certainly wont be one either.

I'm not going to banter back and forth, it is our opinion. If you dont like our opinion thats ok too. We like one product better than another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumSTW3 View Post
This is the first negative thing I have ever seen or heard about Whiteline's products. Now I'm not a genius, but it seems to me that when someone speaks negatively from the point of view of an unnamed "source", it is instantly discredited. This is especially true when the person "relaying the message" and the person selling the product being badmouthed have a less than awesome history. Jason, this is ridiculous. Somehow you managed to find the only person that is willing to talk crap about the company Jared works for, but of course they aren't willing to put their own name on this so called review. This has zero credit in my mind.
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Jason | 281 Motorsports

NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505

1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped
2002 Saleen Speedster #02-346
2007 Roush TrakPak-Race car
2015 Mustang GT

Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM

Email: sales@281m.com
Web: www.saleenspeedlab.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance
Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf


CA's ONLY Authorized Speedlab Center
"Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!"

  #15  
Old 02-25-2013
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Fair Fair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
We understand you are sponsored by Whiteline and appreciate that. We think the WL Watts is a nice piece, but we stand firm in believing there is a better option for the same price to the end user.
Well no, to be clear we are not "sponsored" by Whiteline, but instead I purchased that first Watts Link unit from them, plus a number of other S197 items they make, and have since become a Whiteline dealer. But I only sell products that I can test myself on track, and if they don't hold up I don't carry them. In some cases we might sell a brand but do not carry a specific product from their line-up, if we feel that it was problematic in testing. It is rare but I do have examples (so far not from WL). So far every production part from Whiteline we have tested we found to be bulletproof.

Since we first bought parts from WL in 2012, now we do get the occasional pre-production parts for a little testing and feedback with them before they go into production. But this is still not what I would call a "sponsorship", more of a tester situation. Now if they had given me a bunch of parts for free, to keep and use as I see fit, I could see how that that could taint my review.

Just wanted to clear that up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumSTW3 View Post
This is the first negative thing I have ever seen or heard about Whiteline's products. Now I'm not a genius, but it seems to me that when someone speaks negatively from the point of view of an unnamed "source", it is instantly discredited. This is especially true when the person "relaying the message" and the person selling the product being badmouthed have a less than awesome history. Jason, this is ridiculous. Somehow you managed to find the only person that is willing to talk crap about the company Jared works for, but of course they aren't willing to put their own name on this so called review. This has zero credit in my mind.
Well I can point you to ONE other person in the industry who openly trashes the Whiteline Watts Link kit. But he sells a competing Watts Link product (and, well, so does Jason at 281), so he has a commercial reason to talk down any new potential players in the S197 field, like WL, that might threaten his sales. He has also never tested the Whiteline Watts Link on an actual car, first hand. There is some merit in discussing features of a product (or lack thereof), but real world testing is more meaningful, to me.

So just keep those things in mind when reading reviews of a given product: does the reviewer have any competing interests + have they ever used the parts in anger, or are they just reviewing pictures.

Cheers,
__________________
Terry Fair - owner at Vorshlag Motorsports.
2011 Mustang GT, NASA TT3 Class. Moton Motorsport 2-Ways, Vorshlag camber plates
18x11F/18x12R Forgestar F14 wheels, 315/30/18 Hoosier A6, APR GTC-300
  #16  
Old 02-26-2013
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hazmat hazmat is offline
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I wanted to chime in since I originally posted a few months ago asking what opinions where on the WL WATTS.
I created that post because I wanted to compare what my thoughts/concerns where against what others may thank.
There are several suspension systems out there. ALL have their pros and cons. It all depends on what YOU as the end used classify as a pro or con. Options are a good thing.
A car owner that has a street car and just wants a bolt on suspension to improve ride quality without NVH will not have the same concerns as a car owner that races his car and needs every bit of performance regardless of trade off. Doesn’t that pretty much sum it up?

The following were my initial opinions when I saw the WL Watts:
· Appears to be a quality made product
· Appears to be easily installed in someone’s driveway
· Appears to be easily adjusted
· Appears to make a significant increase in suspension performance-compared to stock
· Appears to be marketed for street cars
· The use of their bushings should dramatically reduce or eliminate NVH compared to solid rod ends/spherical rod ends.
· Although WL doesn’t REQUIRE welding the chassis bracket one could do so if one desired to. This would obviously increase the rigidity of the unit. Again-it appears they market this as a bolt on unit and many folks seek that.
· The design might be improved by tying the mounting points of the horizontal bar and drivers side bar into the same location.
· I think it would be a good, easy, bolt on piece for a street car.

Again, I created the original post seeking others opinions on the WL Watts because I wanted to compare my opinions to others. I never got to post this because there really wasn’t any feedback.

MY SUMMARY:
There is no suspension out there that is going to do everything for everyone. Get the one that does what you want and need it do within your budget.
And remember, opinions are like $@#holes, everybody has got one and they all stink! Sometimes it’s fun just to compare

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  #17  
Old 02-26-2013
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Hazmat,

I love your evaluation process! Quite thourough. One major benefit about the WL that I do like that you pointed out is that an end user could infact install one of these in his/her driveway since it doesnt require being welded in. Having a major pivot point welded in does provide a significant strength aspect that certainly make me feel more confident with it.

One thing I will say about the Cortex unit that most keep missing is that they do make a "Street" specific version with bushing equiped parallel arms. They do have the race version with spherical rod ends. They too will be coming out with a "bolt-in" version that we most likely WONT offer, but will reserve that statement until we see and evalutate their design. But with either their bushing (street) or spherical rod end (track), neither one makes noise, however the track version will translate some harmonics.

Just to show you a fair apples vs. apples comparision:

· Appears to be a quality made product - Both options are!
· Appears to be easily installed in someone’s driveway - WL Yes, Cortex No - professional installation suggested.
· Appears to be easily adjusted - Both options are.
· Appears to make a significant increase in suspension performance-compared to stock - Both options are.
· Appears to be marketed for street cars - Both options are.
· The use of their bushings should dramatically reduce or eliminate NVH compared to solid rod ends/spherical rod ends. - Both companies offer a street version. Cortex can be upgraded the spherical rod ends, WL cant.
· Although WL doesn’t REQUIRE welding the chassis bracket one could do so if one desired to. This would obviously increase the rigidity of the unit. - Again-it appears they market this as a bolt on unit and many folks seek that. - This is an area that really should be welded.
· The design might be improved by tying the mounting points of the horizontal bar and drivers side bar into the same location.
· I think it would be a good, easy, bolt on piece for a street car. WL is, Cortex isnt.

The key issue for us is with the design of the WL system your car needs to be lowered between 1-2" and thats it. Most of you now are running coil-overs and realistically have your car lowered more then that, and thats where one of our points was. But for the WL, if you never go outside of that range, its a good option when welded and braced.

I think a better approach would have been a side by side comparision, but we werent trying to pin one product against another at least in a promotional sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
I wanted to chime in since I originally posted a few months ago asking what opinions where on the WL WATTS.
I created that post because I wanted to compare what my thoughts/concerns where against what others may thank.
There are several suspension systems out there. ALL have their pros and cons. It all depends on what YOU as the end used classify as a pro or con. Options are a good thing.
A car owner that has a street car and just wants a bolt on suspension to improve ride quality without NVH will not have the same concerns as a car owner that races his car and needs every bit of performance regardless of trade off. Doesn’t that pretty much sum it up?

The following were my initial opinions when I saw the WL Watts:
· Appears to be a quality made product
· Appears to be easily installed in someone’s driveway
· Appears to be easily adjusted
· Appears to make a significant increase in suspension performance-compared to stock
· Appears to be marketed for street cars
· The use of their bushings should dramatically reduce or eliminate NVH compared to solid rod ends/spherical rod ends.
· Although WL doesn’t REQUIRE welding the chassis bracket one could do so if one desired to. This would obviously increase the rigidity of the unit. Again-it appears they market this as a bolt on unit and many folks seek that.
· The design might be improved by tying the mounting points of the horizontal bar and drivers side bar into the same location.
· I think it would be a good, easy, bolt on piece for a street car.

Again, I created the original post seeking others opinions on the WL Watts because I wanted to compare my opinions to others. I never got to post this because there really wasn’t any feedback.

MY SUMMARY:
There is no suspension out there that is going to do everything for everyone. Get the one that does what you want and need it do within your budget.
And remember, opinions are like $@#holes, everybody has got one and they all stink! Sometimes it’s fun just to compare
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  #18  
Old 02-26-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
Well I can point you to ONE other person in the industry who openly trashes the Whiteline Watts Link kit. But he sells a competing Watts Link product (and, well, so does Jason at 281), so he has a commercial reason to talk down any new potential players in the S197 field, like WL, that might threaten his sales. He has also never tested the Whiteline Watts Link on an actual car, first hand. There is some merit in discussing features of a product (or lack thereof), but real world testing is more meaningful, to me.
In all "Fairness" , I'm not sure who the "other" company is that you can point to, but we havent and wont trash talk WL. Again, we said multiple times we like their some of their products and may even offer them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
So just keep those things in mind when reading reviews of a given product: does the reviewer have any competing interests + have they ever used the parts in anger, or are they just reviewing pictures.
And you have a competing interest in supporting the brand as well since you sell the WL and not Cortex! But even you admitidly said to me on the phone that you like the Cortex kit and we're suprised to learn that Cortex made a "Street" version with bushings. And at least we arent one of those people reviewing photos ....my roomate's Saleen was used to write the instruction manual photo's and install steps at Whitelines R&D facility by WL's staff. I've personally seen exactly how the manufacture designed and installs their product.

But on another note, when are you going to post up pictures of those awesome caster/camber plates you make...those appear to be SICK!
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  #19  
Old 06-19-2013
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Whiteline products suspension component failures. I read this on a few other forums and figured I'd share it with Saleen community in case some of you guys are running this line of suspension components. This is an Upper Control arm failure.



  #20  
Old 06-19-2013
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Wow, that is pretty significant. I'd like to know all of the details associated with the failures.

I have to say that i'm glade i held off on getting any of the WL stuff.
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  #21  
Old 06-19-2013
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We've seen much worse then these pictures....but we can only do what we can do. They are pretty much close to being out of business anyways. Apparently their factory was in North Korea and there is some lockout issue with their Government. Oh ya, not made in Australia.

Buy American whenever and wherever you can!
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
We've seen much worse then these pictures....but we can only do what we can do. They are pretty much close to being out of business anyways. Apparently their factory was in North Korea and there is some lockout issue with their Government. Oh ya, not made in Australia.

Buy American whenever and wherever you can!

WOW, just wow. Man, you could have not said it better. BUY AMERICAN. I have no problem buying Australian but i'll pass, and glade i did pass on buying NK.
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
WOW, just wow. Man, you could have not said it better. BUY AMERICAN. I have no problem buying Australian but i'll pass, and glade i did pass on buying NK.
Oh come on, why not buy parts from a company that invest in a communist country that wants to bomb us! Lets just build a plant there. Smart, not. IMHO, serves them right.

Parts made in Australia tend to have a good business practices and manufacturing ethics, at least from what we've experianced.

Enough said. The End.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2013
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Listed below are threads from the forums that originally reported the control arm failure by this product offered by White Line. The threads are filled with inportant information regarding suspension dynamics and how to contact White Line if you own this item.

White Line failure:
fordgt500.com/forums/

svtperformance.com/forums/

BRM failure:
svtperformance.com/forums/

With regards to our thread, the above information is of tremendous importance and we thank hazmat for the heads-up. Ideally, we would have also received the originating threads these images came from and background information regarding this issue and course of action by the manufacture.

As for the sociopolitical communist comments, please keep these threads on an informative nature with the topic at hand.
  #25  
Old 06-19-2013
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I have read about this on the s197forum and from my understanding they are taking care of everyone that has experienced this problem. It sounds like their manufacture made a bad batch and they are in the process of replacing them for everyone.


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  #26  
Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Listed below are threads from the forums that originally reported the control arm failure by this product offered by White Line. The threads are filled with inportant information regarding suspension dynamics and how to contact White Line if you own this item.

White Line failure:
fordgt500.com/forums/

svtperformance.com/forums/

BRM failure:
svtperformance.com/forums/

With regards to our thread, the above information is of tremendous importance and we thank hazmat for the heads-up. Ideally, we would have also received the originating threads these images came from and background information regarding this issue and course of action by the manufacture.

As for the sociopolitical communist comments, please keep these threads on an informative nature with the topic at hand.

In fairness it was oneqwkstang that brought the failures to our attention. Thanks to him for keeping us informed.

I'd like to remind everyone several years back when UPR got in the suspension market they experienced a few failures. The failures were almost identical.They corrected the problems & made good on the damages.

I'm giving WL the benefit of the doubt they'll do the same. However, I'm still not a fan if they're manufacturing in NK.
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  #27  
Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
However, I'm still not a fan if they're manufacturing in NK.
Any proof of this besides forum talk?


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  #28  
Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
In all "Fairness" , I'm not sure who the "other" company is that you can point to, but we havent and wont trash talk WL. Again, we said multiple times we like their some of their products and may even offer them.



And you have a competing interest in supporting the brand as well since you sell the WL and not Cortex! But even you admitidly said to me on the phone that you like the Cortex kit and we're suprised to learn that Cortex made a "Street" version with bushings. And at least we arent one of those people reviewing photos ....my roomate's Saleen was used to write the instruction manual photo's and install steps at Whitelines R&D facility by WL's staff. I've personally seen exactly how the manufacture designed and installs their product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
We've seen much worse then these pictures....but we can only do what we can do. They are pretty much close to being out of business anyways. Apparently their factory was in North Korea and there is some lockout issue with their Government. Oh ya, not made in Australia.

Buy American whenever and wherever you can!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
Oh come on, why not buy parts from a company that invest in a communist country that wants to bomb us! Lets just build a plant there. Smart, not. IMHO, serves them right.

Parts made in Australia tend to have a good business practices and manufacturing ethics, at least from what we've experianced.

Enough said. The End.
Wow, you sure do go from wanting to carry their products to bashing them! How bipolar are you? And North Korea, really? How about you show me some proof of that. "But, we have seen worse", with out the first bit of proof. All I read is "don't buy from anyone but me". Oh wait, did someone else use your computer again? My bad..... typical excuses from a low life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Listed below are threads from the forums that originally reported the control arm failure by this product offered by White Line. The threads are filled with inportant information regarding suspension dynamics and how to contact White Line if you own this item.

White Line failure:
fordgt500.com/forums/

svtperformance.com/forums/

BRM failure:
svtperformance.com/forums/

With regards to our thread, the above information is of tremendous importance and we thank hazmat for the heads-up. Ideally, we would have also received the originating threads these images came from and background information regarding this issue and course of action by the manufacture.

As for the sociopolitical communist comments, please keep these threads on an informative nature with the topic at hand.
It wasn't hazmat it was OneQwk.
  #29  
Old 06-19-2013
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The only thing made in Korea is the bushings. The control arms are made in California.


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  #30  
Old 06-19-2013
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Thank you OneQwkStang for informing us on this topic this topic.
  #31  
Old 06-19-2013
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No problem, I just wanted to make sure the brotherhood was aware. I would hate to read a thread about one of our beauties destroyed from these aftermarket parts.
  #32  
Old 06-20-2013
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We are getting a little off track here, please redirect and I feel this thread needs some cleaning until we have facts.
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  #33  
Old 06-20-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wackett View Post
We are getting a little off track here, please redirect and I feel this thread needs some cleaning until we have facts.

I concur. Lets stick to the facts. Please present them as you find them. I'll do the same.
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  #34  
Old 06-20-2013
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I think we all know failures can happen no matter how you overbuild.

Latest word on that thread in the other forum is that Whiteline is working on addressing a weakness, and that's commendable.
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  #35  
Old 08-11-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxBoostinxX View Post
It sounds like their manufacture made a bad batch...
No.

This was a failure rooted in poor design and had nothing to do with defective manufacturing.
  #36  
Old 08-11-2013
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Quote:
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No.

This was a failure rooted in poor design and had nothing to do with defective manufacturing.
Lol. Please enlighten us all with the proof instead of blatantly saying "no".
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  #37  
Old 08-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxBoostinxX View Post
Lol. Please enlighten us all with the proof instead of blatantly saying "no".
Try this..."enlighten" yourself. Read the aforementioned linked threads if you are capable. If your cognitive ability allows you the luxury, you'll quickly see that there were no "bad batches" as you surmised. It was simply a design that was never validated and was based on faulty assumptions.

Good luck!
  #38  
Old 08-12-2013
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You must be the manufacturer.
  #39  
Old 08-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
Try this..."enlighten" yourself. Read the aforementioned linked threads if you are capable. If your cognitive ability allows you the luxury, you'll quickly see that there were no "bad batches" as you surmised. It was simply a design that was never validated and was based on faulty assumptions.

Good luck!
Lmfao! How about you go to hell bud. I was trying to allow you to be informative for the sake of the forum and this thread, but instead you want to stand on your soap box and get mad at me when I want you to back up your claim instead of simply saying "no". I have read through those threads when the problem first came to light and frankly, I'm not doing it again. Why? Because I honestly don't give a **** anymore. Vendors want to bash each other on products and members don't want to share information anymore. Wtf is the forum good for?
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2013
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"Tob" has "2" posts and this should be considered while reading comments.
  #41  
Old 08-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_177 View Post
You must be the manufacturer.
I'm not quite sure what line of reasoning you used to reach that conclusion. Interesting none the less. But no, I have nothing to do with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxBoostinxX View Post
Lmfao! How about you go to hell bud. I was trying to allow you to be informative for the sake of the forum and this thread, but instead you want to stand on your soap box and get mad at me when I want you to back up your claim instead of simply saying "no". I have read through those threads when the problem first came to light and frankly, I'm not doing it again. Why? Because I honestly don't give a **** anymore. Vendors want to bash each other on products and members don't want to share information anymore. Wtf is the forum good for?
Put the meds down for a moment. You don't need to allow me to be "informative" for the forum. I corrected the misstatement you made regarding a "bad batch" and you took umbrage with it.

I see no soap box and I'm not mad at you (another interesting conclusion though). I have no "claim" to back up. I suggested to you to read the threads that were already linked earlier in this thread that relate directly to the topic at hand. So you either missed the crux of those threads, page after page, or your reading comprehension skills are somewhat lacking. Plenty of information has been shared within the SVTP thread and the people at Whiteline have been very forthcoming - something forums (at times) can be very good for.

So to be clear - your "bad batch" comment was incorrect. The S197 UCA from Whiteline was simply not designed to handle the loads imparted upon it during certain dynamic conditions, such as drag-style launches, road course style demands, and in some cases simple street driving. Whiteline admitted as much and has promised to go back to the drawing board and to return with nothing less than a very robust re-design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
"Tob" has "2" posts and this should be considered while reading comments.
This is true. Always consider post count as opposed to proper diction, context, or accuracy.
  #42  
Old 08-13-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
This is true. Always consider post count as opposed to proper diction, context, or accuracy.
I'm too tired to care.
  #43  
Old 08-13-2013
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This take this step by step shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
Put the meds down for a moment. You don't need to allow me to be "informative" for the forum. I corrected the misstatement you made regarding a "bad batch" and you took umbrage with it.
Meds? I could only wish. It would save me the time and trouble of dealing with this outlandish post.

Informative? Yes, I most certainly need you to be informative to OUR forum and OUR community. I'm sorry but this isn't SVTP, we don't say, "use the search button" and "go read through the threads newb". Here, we try to be helpful any time we can even if it takes a few minutes of our time. Dave is a prime example and probably answers the same questions every other month and does it without hesitation. Than you might ask why we do this? Because we aren't egotistical douchebags like yourself (no pun intended), or at the least you are appearing to be. We know that just simply answering the question takes less time than the current ****ing contest that ensues.

Umbrage? I'm sorry, I was the one that asked you to clarify for the sake of the forum and you went on a tirade much like a 5 year old girl at a princess party just because I asked you to share with the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
I see no soap box and I'm not mad at you (another interesting conclusion though). I have no "claim" to back up. I suggested to you to read the threads that were already linked earlier in this thread that relate directly to the topic at hand. So you either missed the crux of those threads, page after page, or your reading comprehension skills are somewhat lacking. Plenty of information has been shared within the SVTP thread and the people at Whiteline have been very forthcoming - something forums (at times) can be very good for.
My bad, i should of used "figurative" in front of soap box, just so it makes sense to you.

But aren't all conclusions interesting? Especially when some guy, that is obviously mad at the world or situation, comes to a forum completely randomly just to comment on a thread. Coincidental? I think we all agree it certainly is not.

If whiteline is being forthcoming with the situation than why couldn't you say that from the get go? Was it that hard to simply relay information to fellow mustang owners? You obviously came here for a reason and not just to bicker with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
So to be clear - your "bad batch" comment was incorrect.
Ah, now we are back to where it began.

First off, I never once said my comment was correct. This is a false assumption that is obviously hard to comprehend (wait, comprehension skills? :P). Where you came to this conclusion is much like Bigfoot and is still uncertain.

Secondly, did it EVER occur to you the date and time of my bad batch post? I simply was implying what I had read at the current time of that particular post. You do realize there were multiple posts and information after that statement don't you? As dumb as you don't appear to be you probably would agree with this. I'm sorry, but a handful of control arms, 2 or 3 at the time, don't immediately say all of them are defective. But bad design? Much more probable. But who's fault is this you might ask? The company or the consumer? I actually would say both are at fault. The business for misleading the consumer without the proper testing and the consumer for not asking the right questions.

And finally, I don't have anything whiteline on my car, nor the time to waste on multiple forums keeping up with the current situation. So for the sake of OUR forum and its members, this is why I asked you to clarify and share with us what you knew from the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tob View Post
The S197 UCA from Whiteline was simply not designed to handle the loads imparted upon it during certain dynamic conditions, such as drag-style launches, road course style demands, and in some cases simple street driving. Whiteline admitted as much and has promised to go back to the drawing board and to return with nothing less than a very robust re-design.
Now that we are through with everything else we can get back on subject. This is VERY thorough and reasonable information. Like I said previously, I think we both can agree the design is extremely flawed especially when it comes to the safety of people. How no one thought to question it is beyond me. I think it just goes to show that we all need to be weary as consumers and don't immediately "buy-in" to clever marketing schemes such as "lightened" or "light weight". Just think, there is a reason why ALL the companies aren't doing it.
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  #44  
Old 08-13-2013
Tob Tob is offline
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Phew. A truly great read. Worthy of a lengthy line by line response, but I share "Dave's" position in an earlier post.

Except for this little gem...

[QUOTE=XxBoostinxX;109351]

First off, I never once said my comment was correct. This is a false assumption that is obviously hard to comprehend (wait, comprehension skills? :P). [quote]

Now that's a unique strategy that would have duped even the most proficient crayon master . Liked baked goods gone awry in the oven, your now infamous "bad batch" comment was more than simply garbage worthy. It was a mind exercise that only those on the LCD bus could comprehend. Anyone outside the circle simply wouldn't understand.

Do you write mystery/romance novel coloring books on the side, or just here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxBoostinxX
Where you came to this conclusion is much like Bigfoot and is still uncertain.
Too much hair to be associated with your straw man but he'd probably approve of the red herring you threw out there. You silly charlatan you.
  #45  
Old 08-14-2013
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perauto perauto is offline
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I feel like I need to jump in to this fire and say the We Performance Autosport has used both ,Whiteline and Cortex Watts links. We are dealer for both company's and worked with both on new parts. I want to be upfront with this.

The Whiteline unit as supplied to RTR and is on my 14 RTR spec 2 street car that has seen its share of track testing with ZERO failures,but we did weld in the support. Our American Iron Race team ran a set of Whiteline rear arms in 2010 and set a few track records with ZERO failures.

Our Current American Iron 13 RTR Mustang is running a complete Cortex SLA front and rear Watts system with torque arm and the car almost broke our own track record in 130 degree track temps at VIR a few weeks ago,we were 3 tenths away from a new record!!!!!

Both company's produce quality parts. We also Race what we sell.

Mark LaMaskin President Performance Autosport
3 Time American Iron Mid -Atlantic AI champions
804-358-2505
  #46  
Old 08-15-2013
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Greg Wackett Greg Wackett is offline
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Ok can we put this thread to rest now, we all have options and opinions.
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