Q: IAT's during Dyno pulls?

[tbrock]

Here is a video of my final setup should have the car on the road shortly which is good as the temps are supposed to be up 70-80's. This will give me some indication on how the setup performs.

As you'll see I've flipped my AFCO HE around so the outlet/inlets are on the drivers side since my IC tank is there. I drilled some mounting holes in the stock saleen bracket to use it on the drivers side mirroring the stock position. I'm feeding that pump (1) from the tank to the bottom of the HE. I mounted the 2nd pump on the studs on the HE using a GT500 bracket. I shortened the tubing as much as possible and replaced most of it ensuring it was all 3/4" in. dia. I've dropped in a few photos and a video of the water flow with this and one from sunday with the other setup I tried which required too much hose.
BTW I've got a brand new Bosch 8501 if someone needs it and a new Jabsco if someone wants to use two of them.
1st video is current setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHnz...ature=youtu.be

2nd video is 1st pump feeding 2nd pump with inlet/outlets on passenger side. Required too much tubing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owSbedfNlIE

[06SaleenExtreme]

Todd,

Nice job on your cooling setup. Looking forward to seeing your temp results.

[tbrock]

Well after a short drive to pick up the kids from school (cool dad rolls up in a Supercharged Shelby, even cooler stopping at Sonic and watching the HS kids drool) efforts to lower AIT's was successful. Ambient temp is 75 and in traffic after a couple of 2nd 3rd gear hits she settled in at 96. Light to light 30-40 mph it stayed right there. I went WOT a couple of times and the temps of course jumped up 120-125 and immediately went back down. We parked at Sonic for 20-30 minutes to let it heat soak and she jumped up to 125. I pulled out and went roughly 1/4 mile down the road and AIT dropped to 105. Going out again for a longer drive to see what it does. So far I am very happy with the results

[tbrock]

So I went for a little longer drive where the speeds went from 50-1?? as part of "official" testing. Cruising @ 70 temp was 96-98 and if I could have kept my foot out of the loud pedal it might have dropped even further. I did some 1st - 3rd gear WOT pulls and the temp hit 125. Immediately it dropped and in 1/4 mile or less the temp was back down to 104 then continued to drop by then end of a mile to 98 degrees. I did 3-4 of these pulls and each time the recovery was great. I then went to a large state hwy with 3 lanes per side and cruised light to light for several mile. The temp stayed 96-100 depending on how long I sat at the light. I see how the fans would help in traffic.
I got home and took the lid off of my IC tank and the water was luke warm. I have an interceptor that is set to read AIT's plus the Saleen AIT gauge and they were both within a few degrees of each other. The interceptor being the more accurate.
So far so good.

[seelye76]

Originally Posted by tbrock

So I went for a little longer drive where the speeds went from 50-1?? as part of "official" testing. Cruising @ 70 temsp were 96-98 and if I could have kept my foot out of the loud pedal it might have dropped even further. I did some 1st - 3rd gear WOT pulls and the temp hit 125. Immediately it dropped and in 1/4 or less the temp was back down to 104 then continued to drop by then end of a mile to 98. I did 3-4 of these pulls and each time the recovery was great. I then went to a large state hwy with 3 lanes per side and cruised light to light for several mile. The temp stayed 96-100 depending on how long I sat at the light. I see how the fans would help in traffic.

I got home and took the lid off of my IC tank and the water was luke warm. I have an interceptor that is set to Read AIT's plus the Saleen AIT gauge and they were both within a few degrees of each other. The interceptor being the more accurate.

So far so good.

Ambient temps during this test around 75 deg? What is the delta you are seeing while cruising. I was checking mine today on my way back from the track and was surprised how low they were at cruising speed. I was logging with my handheld tuner. I attached some pics, but at 80mph I was getting about 17 deg delta and at 75 it was running 15. I would hit it and get the temps up and they would fall back to the original delta pretty quickly. I think in large part it has to do with my OD gear in my T56 since it I am only around 1500 rpms at 75mph.

[jrcalvin]

Quote "TBROCK.....What I liked about your setup and approach was the whole setup you used that was essentially an actual "real world" setup and thereby removed various "test" variables. So who can dispute the flow meter readings now?" jcalvin

Tbrock, since you went to the effort to conduct a "real life" test I thought I would do something similar. However, I did not use a "flow meter".

I disconnected the return line to the IC tank (180 Oz capacity aluminum Moroso IC tank) and put the return line in a 5gal bucket. I had someone keep poring water into the IC tank to keep it near full.

I ran the single Jabsco pump precisely for 60 secs. I repeated the test 3 times and each time the net amount in the bucket was 408 oz. The flow rate calculated was; 408 / 128 oz/gal = 3.188 gal per min.

Well, that was a little disappointing !But that is what it is....in real life!

The setup: Jabsco 12V pump, 1" ID hose from IC tank to Jabsco pump, 1" ID Jabsco output hose to Saleen extreme HE 1" fitting, HE output to 3/4" ID hose to input IC, output IC hose 3/4" ID to IC tank return.

So a second pump will increase flow especially if used in parallel. But for now, the 2nd pump location and hose routing location, etc, seems a little fuzzy to me.

john c

[06SaleenExtreme]

John,

I did the same test John but bored out the fittings to the intercooler to .60" My hose ID is all 3/4". I run a different Jabsco pump 18510-0000. I run 2 gallons in 17 seconds. When I run just to the heat exchanger, elevate the hose 3ft but not go through the intercooler it pump 2 gallons in 8 seconds.
I will be adding a second pump in series soon. I would like to get to 10 gallons a minute. The results should be very close to that.

[jrcalvin]

Wyatt:

Okay, now I am really bummed about my setup. I talked to David, one of the techs at Jabsco, and David confirmed that the Jabsco Model 50840-0012 is essentially the same as the Jabsco 18610-0000 which it superceded.

I can only conclude that I have more restriction in my setup other than the stock bore fittings going in & out of the IC. David said that Jabsco does make a higher pressure 50860-0012 pump which could help with the restrictions but that pump draws 21 amps. The 50860-0012 is almost the same as the 50840-0012 except the motor body is 3" longer (9"vs 6").

I used 1" ID hoses and 3/4" ID hoses and made sure that all my hose fittings were the largest diameter ID available for better flow. I may also bore out the IC fittings as you did. However, it appears that the main culprit must be the Saleen Extreme HE as we have the same IC. Blast it!

For installation and hose routing convenience, a 2nd pump would have to be installed in series rather than parallel. I would prefer that the 2nd pump be installed between the HE output and IC input. Then I could just splice into that hose and mount the pump on the drivers side. Easy!

I will have to think about this for a few days.....

john

[tbrock]

I have my one bosch pump feeding the bottom of the HE and the 2nd pump is being fed from the top of the HE which in turn pushes the water to the cool side of the IC. I would like to get my hands on two of the new 2013 GT500 pumps as I think they are the same as the ZL-1 pumps which performed very well in the lingenfelter test. Two of them would be great! Down side is 2 of them would cost what a Stewart pump would cost.

[06SaleenExtreme]

David is not telling you what there pump documentation states. There were a couple pumps prior before 50840. The 50820-0020 draws 8 amps and is a great flowing pump. I believe it had better flow numbers than the 50840. Prior to that pump was the 50820-0000 which pumped better numbers at 8 amps than all of them. I was running the 50820-0020 until I found a new old stock 50820-0000 and replaced it.

[06SaleenExtreme]

I forgot to mention the 50860-0012 pump is only to be run at 30 minutes at a time. That is not the pump you want to be running.

[Werecow]

I have been reading this thread with much interest, but I have an odd question... Is it possible to push the water through the heat exchanger so fast that the heat exchanger doesn't have a chance to do its job correctly? I see that you have two heat exchangers, which probably deals with my concern, but there is a balance, right? ... for those of us with one heat exchanger.

[jrcalvin]

Wyatt: Yeah, I saw that 30 minute run, 30 minute rest for the higher pressure pump. No good as you say.

Maybe my easiest and cheapest and immediate solution is to temporarily use my extra Bosch pump between the HE and IC and then check the flow again?

Werecow: Your question about running the fluid too quickly through the HE is a great example of the kind of "mis-information" you can get on the internet if you pose that question in your internet search. 99% of the people do not have the vaguest idea how thermodynamics comes into play. And probably a lot of mechanical engineers may be a little hazy on that question as well.

jc

[06SaleenExtreme]

From what I read, the best results are from running dual identical pumps (so there is no cavitation) run them back to back (in series).

[jrcalvin]

Just for the record, you can see that the pump bodies for a Jabsco 18510 and a Jabsco 50840 are different due to the different design of the pump impellers. To me. the 18510 impeller seems like old school design whereas the 50840 impeller appears as a more modern/current impeller design. I can't comment on which is better......

I have seen similar differences between old BMW water pump impellers and newer BMW water pump impellers. But what does BMW water pump impellers have to do with Mustangs or Jabsco pumps? I dunno, but I am more familiar with BMW water pumps over the years.

If I had a choice, I would choose the Jabsco 18510 over the later model as I like the "6 blade impeller" rather than the Jabsco 50840 "fan impeller" . The Jabsco 18510 "6 blade impeller" appears to provide a more positive water volume diplacement and maybe even pressure.

jc

[Werecow]

Originally Posted by Werecow

I have been reading this thread with much interest, but I have an odd question... Is it possible to push the water through the heat exchanger so fast that the heat exchanger doesn't have a chance to do its job correctly? I see that you have two heat exchangers, which probably deals with my concern, but there is a balance, right? ... for those of us with one heat exchanger.

I have never done an internet search on it, but I have worked on larger scale systems for high powered tranmitters and there was definitly a balance between flow rate and surface area for the heat exchanger. I would thing that the same would apply with the cars, even though they work on a much smaller scale.

[tbrock]

Quick update on my efforts to get the IAT temps down. Warm weather today 80+ and the IAT at 70-80mph was 96 which is what I saw in my previous test. Recovery was again great. I read the following post and realized I need to clean my intercooler after a similar experience as the OP. A few years back I used an aftermarket catch can that didn't work and my IC was coated. I wiped it off but did not remove it for cleaning.
http://saleenforums.soec.org/showthread.php?t=17387

I also added the following to keep the overall engine temps down. Fit and finish is great and my engine temps came down 15 degree from stock.
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...l-Transmission

Next step is to pull the intercooler and clean it thoroughly.

[06SaleenExtreme]

Todd,

Thanks for the update on your testing. Nice job on lowering your temps.

[seelye76]

I was thinking about this a little more and I think it is important to get the pumps and HEs running efficiently like has been previously posted, but my experience is that it doesn't do much when you are under continuous boost like on a drag strip. I run around 15 deg over ambient and it recovers quickly, but when I go to the drag strip (or dyno) the intake temps reach 170-180 degrees by the end of the run. That leaves a lot on the table even with race gas. It is common practice with supercharger and turbo applications to use a meth injection system to cool the IATs and it provides additional octane for detonation protection. I am really thinking that is the way to go. No need to tune it for meth, just use it to keep IATs down. I have searched and there isn't a lot of information out there about people using meth on the Saleen Series VI supercharger, but I don't see why not.

[06SaleenExtreme]

At the Mojave Mile we ran temps at 122 degrees at the end of the mile running a 2.87 pulley. Air temp that day was at 78 degrees. Are you running
the stock gauge?

[seelye76]

Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme

At the Mojave Mile we ran temps at 122 degrees at the end of the mile running a 2.87 pulley. Air temp that day was at 78 degrees. Are you running
the stock gauge?

I have been using my Diablo handheld tuner to look at IATs. It seems to read a little higher than the Saleen gauge. I am running a little more boost than you since I also have the 10% OD crank pulley, but it shouldn't be that much different.

[06SaleenExtreme]

How much boost are you making?

[seelye76]

That's a little harder to tell with Saleen gauge. I would say around 13.5 psi. Car made 608 hp on the 3.0 pulley.

[06SaleenExtreme]

I'm running at 12. Are you running the stock pump, heat exchanger, and recovery tank.

[seelye76]

Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme

I'm running at 12. Are you running the stock pump, heat exchanger, and recovery tank.

No, no, yes. I have the EMP pump with Saleen extreme upgraded HE. It recovers very quickly and in normal driving run about 15 deg over ambient. When I go to the drag strip though, that's a diff story.

[06SaleenExtreme]

You made a great choice on that pump and heat exchanger. That exchanger also goes the full with of the lower opening on the bumper cover for cooling.

[seelye76]

Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme

You made a great choice on that pump and heat exchanger. That exchanger also goes the full with of the lower opening on the bumper cover for cooling.

Yeah and I have the baffles installed to make sure it doesn't go around the HE.

[06SaleenExtreme]

Way to go, I had to make mine. In testing, the box shaved off a handful of degrees.

[tbrock]

quick recall of what I ended up with last year. I drilled out the nipples going into the Intercooler as they have a smaller inner diameter than anything else in the system (thanks Wyatt! for the heads up). I tried to eliminate as much of the restrictions and excess hose as I could. Test and coolant flow is shown below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93W83Z-_Waw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVbqCnWbO0w


And here is the new Ford GT 500 pump (2013)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn6WD0hmRXk

coolant flow with steeda triple pass HE/Ford GT500 pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwvgfeoFT0g

The two pumps worked great and recovered well, but in traffic and at slow speeds it still wasn't ideal. So the Steeda triple with fans should help.

[seelye76]

What size drill did you use to drill out the fittings?

[tbrock]

I believe I started with a 5/8 and then used a round file to finish it up. I believe 06saleenextreme took his to a machine shop.

[seelye76]

Originally Posted by tbrock

I believe I started with a 5/8 and then used a round file to finish it up. I believe 06saleenextreme took his to a machine shop.

Thanks! I tried one of them last night and it seems like it may make the wall too thin. Not sure to go with it or buy a new fitting. Do you know where you can get a new fitting? It is a weird design. I don't even know how to search for it. It isn't a STOR fitting or an ORFS that I am familiar with.