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2005-2009 Saleen Mustang For all S281, S302, H281 and H302 models based on the Ford S-197 Mustang platform, with the exception of the S302 PJ (see below). Be sure to specify year, model and equipment if asking for help.

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  #1  
Old 10-24-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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Default Dyno results 😡: 06-0037 Extreme

Ok after long wait for dyno tune over 4 weeks , finally it's done. Very disappointing results. Will attach dyno paper when I get home but here it is:

Stock dyno : 473rwh and 460tq
With mods listed below: 492rwh and 520tq

Wtf. Can it be the tuner or am I missing something.. I was expecting 530-540rwh. Most people I've seen with almost exact mods are getting 530-550rwh. Any ideas or suggestion. Tuner says I've max out the supercharger. Seen 14lbs of boost at 4200rpm. They say " I've pick up 120torque under the curve " and 80rwh under the curve power band ". HELP HELP
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #2  
Old 10-25-2015
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Change tuners
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'99 MUSTANG SALEEN S-351 #37 "FASLEEN"
'99 MUSTANG SALEEN S-281SC #201 "SLOLEEN"
'99 MUSTANG SALEEN/COBRA S-281 #320
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  #3  
Old 10-25-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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dyno sheet:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...6/DSC00410.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...6/DSC00409.jpg
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #4  
Old 10-25-2015
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Rear wheel versus crank numbers perhaps? Thought I'd mention it just in case :)
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Old 10-25-2015
jayr933 jayr933 is offline
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But I would say tune is the reason.
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Old 10-25-2015
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Is it the same dyno for before and after numbers? Mustang dynos usually have lower HP numbers than dynojets. Also, terminate at a higher rpm. As a comparison, when I was making 609 HP my peak HP number was at 6700 rpm. At 5800 (which is where it looks like you terminated), I was making 568 HP.
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Old 10-25-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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Seelye76,
They took it to 5800rpm cause they said i maxed out the supercharger. Boost was going down after 4200rpm but is getting 13.2lbs evenly from 5200-5800rpm. Any other suggestions and comments to do ? Do you have any of your dyno sheets when you first started modding your car with basics headers, cam, pipe, cai, etc?
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
Seelye76,
They took it to 5800rpm cause they said i maxed out the supercharger. Boost was going down after 4200rpm but is getting 13.2lbs evenly from 5200-5800rpm. Any other suggestions and comments to do ? Do you have any of your dyno sheets when you first started modding your car with basics headers, cam, pipe, cai, etc?
Your boost is going to fluctuate. Yeah, maybe you are spinning it a bit fast or getting a little slip at the top end, but there is still more power to be made. I run it 7000 rpm and I make 15-16 lbs of boost. Also, what does your intake temps look like during the run. Make sure to start the pull under 100 deg, if possible. The hotter it gets the more timing gets pulled and that makes a huge difference.
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Old 10-25-2015
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What octane fuel are you using? I see you are in CA so I don't think you can get 93, right?
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Old 10-25-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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We only have 91. Not sure about temps but i will follow up with shop tomorrow and ask. Forgot to mention that it was on a " mustang dyno ". So what about them saying " made over 100tq under the curve " comment trying to make me feel better because they knew it wasn't the result i was hoping for. Any truth to that? They said you u look at my sheet at 4000rpm( before was 400 and new was 520tq) and power was the same around 60-70whp difference
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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Old 10-25-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
We only have 91. Not sure about temps but i will follow up with shop tomorrow and ask. Forgot to mention that it was on a " mustang dyno ". So what about them saying " made over 100tq under the curve " comment trying to make me feel better because they knew it wasn't the result i was hoping for. Any truth to that? They said you u look at my sheet at 4000rpm( before was 400 and new was 520tq) and power was the same around 60-70whp difference
They are correct. Peak HP is just a bragging number. The extra torque under the curve is gonna be what you feel when you drive it on a daily basis. It also shows that you have more on the top end if you decide to take it into the higher rpm range. Just make sure Air/Fuel ratio is good and intake temps are in check and let her rip. You will get the number you seek...
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Old 11-05-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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So after more final tuning from them and results still same ( bogging for 15-25 mins at first start and horsepower still didn't change). So i opt to just ordered a " mail order tune" from JDM. Will post results when i get it Hope its positive .
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #13  
Old 11-05-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
So after more final tuning from them and results still same ( bogging for 15-25 mins at first start and horsepower still didn't change). So i opt to just ordered a " mail order tune" from JDM. Will post results when i get it Hope its positive .

Did you still terminate the pull at 5800? For remote tuning I use another guy, Lito, and he is amazing. Very quick sending updates and the drivability is great. He specializes in 3V motors.
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Old 11-05-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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Yeah. They said power wasn't climbing so no need to go pass 5800. But my cam specs says it's good to 6200-6400. Plus they said I maxed out my supercharger cause my boost drop .8 from 14.2@4200 and 4300-5800 drops from 14.2 to 13.4... They said if it didn't maxed out then it would be steady or climbing at higher rpm. Do u have have of your dyno graph when u were around 550whp ?
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #15  
Old 11-05-2015
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Here's my graph at 550.

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Old 11-05-2015
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And I will add that my boost dropped too and still drops at higher rpm, but it still makes more power. It is absurd to stop at 5800 rpm on these engines.
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Old 11-05-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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If you look at my graph, it didn't climb like yours. What was your mod with this graph? Similar to mine. Also my cam is good to 6200-6400rpm only according to the spec card from Livernois
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #19  
Old 11-06-2015
Razorbed Razorbed is offline
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I can recommend Manuel (Lito) too.
I have a forged 4.6 in the pipeline and he will tune that one too...
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Old 11-06-2015
06Extreme26 06Extreme26 is offline
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You guys say Lito will create a better custom email tune than JDM? I can't for the life of me find someone around the Tampa Bay area that specializes in these engines. So if I get a decent data log and dyno locally he can fine tune it from there and send an email tune? How much does he generally charge?
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  #21  
Old 11-06-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06Extreme26 View Post
You guys say Lito will create a better custom email tune than JDM? I can't for the life of me find someone around the Tampa Bay area that specializes in these engines. So if I get a decent data log and dyno locally he can fine tune it from there and send an email tune? How much does he generally charge?

He is very good and very quick. He charges $300 and it doesn't matter the fuel. For me he made an e85 tune and a 93 octane tune all for $300.
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Old 11-06-2015
06Extreme26 06Extreme26 is offline
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Wow that is a great price for 2 separate tunes. Thanks for the info.
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  #23  
Old 11-06-2015
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If you are testing on a Mustang dyno you can't expect the same numbers as others running on a Dyno-jet. They are two different setups and the results are different. Mustang dyno can be setup for your cars specifics - i.e. it can put resistance on the rollers that mimic the force to moving a 3500lb car. The dynojet's roller is a set weight and represents the force to move a 2000lb car. If you want to feel good about numbers go run it on a Dynojet.
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Old 11-06-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seethrough View Post
If you are testing on a Mustang dyno you can't expect the same numbers as others running on a Dyno-jet. They are two different setups and the results are different. Mustang dyno can be setup for your cars specifics - i.e. it can put resistance on the rollers that mimic the force to moving a 3500lb car. The dynojet's roller is a set weight and represents the force to move a 2000lb car. If you want to feel good about numbers go run it on a Dynojet.

Bingo! And pull until at least 6500 rpm 😜
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Old 11-06-2015
06Extreme26 06Extreme26 is offline
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Yeah I know I saw a video where JDM Engineering would rev the forged 4.6's to 6800. Don't know how much better the numbers were because there's limited exposure to these engines apparently.
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Old 11-06-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06Extreme26 View Post
Yeah I know I saw a video where JDM Engineering would rev the forged 4.6's to 6800. Don't know how much better the numbers were because there's limited exposure to these engines apparently.

You can rev the non-forged motors to 6800. There's a ton of data on S197 forums discussing the 3V engine. My cars have made power over 6000 rpm in all configurations. Whether it was a regular SC non-forged motor making 450 rwhp or my current forged stroker making over 700 rwhp.
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Old 11-06-2015
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I wasn't sure about all configurations but that's good to know. I'll have to visit that forum more often.
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2015
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If it still bogs down after the tune then the tuner sucks. I had that bogging issue after a few mods and my tuner fixed in one shot. I personally have never liked mail order tunes, I would highly recommend you find another local tuner.
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01-001 SC, Tuned by Pro Dyno, 2.8 SC pulley, MoSaleen, CAI, Off road X pipe, Mcleod Super Street clutch, H&R Super Sport springs, shorty antenna.
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  #29  
Old 11-11-2015
06Extreme26 06Extreme26 is offline
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I totally agree. The problem is I don't know who did what after 2013. Supposedly it was tuned in 2013 by JDM Engineering and I was told the fuel trims were dialed in perfectly at that time. When I got the car from the previous owner he mentioned that it loads up a bit. The SCT tuner LCD screen was broken when I got it so who knows who did what after 2013. I haven't gotten an email tune nor have I brought it to a local tuner yet. But that's coming very soon.
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Old 11-11-2015
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You can get any medium range OBDII scanner and watch the short and long term fuel trims to see if the car is loading up. If so the tune needs adjusted. Some short term fuel trim numbers are fine but long term trim numbers should be low.
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  #31  
Old 11-12-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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UPDATE ON DYNO NUMBERS:
So to review whats going on with my car prior to jdm mail tune:

1. 483 whp and 520 torque
2. bogging and hesitation at first start for about 30 mins
3. cant rev at all in first 30 mins
4. cruise control didn't work( shop said maybe bad control )

With JDM mail tune:

515 who and 513 tq

1. drives great at first start and no hesitation

2. cruise control is back and working

Shop that did dyno run did do data logging and said he sees cam moving 2 to 7 % or degree . don't remember exact words. But he did say if we limit the cams( $800 labor, $600 phase limited and $550 custom tune ), I can pick up another 25-30 more. But because its lock , this tuner cant do much. Is there any way for me to ask to original shop to fix it( since they recommend to locked it ) or Im out of luck with it .... Is there any thing else i can do for $2000 to get more power?
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #32  
Old 11-12-2015
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Glad to hear you for things worked out. Did you raise the rpm on the dyno at all? Torque didn't change, but horsepower did so it looks like you revved it a bit higher. Anyway, for $2000 I would invest in handling or cooling modifications. Probably a Cortex torque arm and watts link which is about $2000 in parts. For power you should upgrade your heat exchanger pump to the high flow emp pump from Lingenfelter. Lower intake temps give you more power by not pulling timing and giving you a cooler charge. You could also install a 10% over drive crank pulley to spin the supercharger a little faster and make more boost. When I was at 550hp I saw a 50 HP increase by just upgrading to the FRPP throttle body. So many options. For me none of them would be to pay $2000 for someone to lock my cams.
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Old 11-12-2015
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Now that I think of it, E85. That is the best bang for your buck for HP bar none.
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Old 11-12-2015
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I already have 12% overdrive crank pulley running 14.2lbs of boost. I have Afco pro heat exchanger to keep cool. So I was thinking of porting supercharger lids and ford racing throttle body at the same time and get custom tune with this tuner. I should have gone with him in the first place. So don't spend $2000 to fix cam? Also original shop is not responsible for giving bad advice on locking the cams? Think i can ask them to split the cost of labor?
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #35  
Old 11-12-2015
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Default Dyno results 😡: 06-0037 Extreme

Quote:
Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
I already have 12% overdrive crank pulley running 14.2lbs of boost. I have Afco pro heat exchanger to keep cool. So I was thinking of porting supercharger lids and ford racing throttle body at the same time and get custom tune with this tuner. I should have gone with him in the first place. So don't spend $2000 to fix cam? Also original shop is not responsible for giving bad advice on locking the cams? Think i can ask them to split the cost of labor?

I was confused. I thought you wanted to lock it, but in fact the other shop talked you into locking it. Good luck getting them to do anything for free. I really need more information to give good advice. What do your intake temps look like? What is max temps at end of dyno pull? Did they log timing? What is your max timing? I think you are really limited by 91 octane. That is just crap and I bet is making your timing very low to be safe. At your boost you are also most likely limited by your throttle body as well. Like I said though, maybe look at handling modifications. Lots of horsepower is worthless if you're spinning your wheels....
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Old 11-12-2015
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Timing is at 15 and gas is 91. Do you k ow how to read data log. If so I can email you the data log info. That sucks that they won't even split labor cost because it was bad info for locking cams. The cost me hella money just to chase " higher numbers" and drivability . I knew that 483 was hella low and tuner would blame on supercharger maxing out. That's why I spent another $400 email tune from JDM and $200 for Dyno run and data logging at another tuner shop and plus I paid them $500 for a ****ty tune. I have MacBook so I can't open or download sct live link
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2006 Saleen Extreme #37:
2.3 Whipple
Kooks Longtube with Catted X-pipe,
Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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  #37  
Old 11-12-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
Timing is at 15 and gas is 91. Do you k ow how to read data log. If so I can email you the data log info. That sucks that they won't even split labor cost because it was bad info for locking cams. The cost me hella money just to chase " higher numbers" and drivability . I knew that 483 was hella low and tuner would blame on supercharger maxing out. That's why I spent another $400 email tune from JDM and $200 for Dyno run and data logging at another tuner shop and plus I paid them $500 for a ****ty tune. I have MacBook so I can't open or download sct live link

Timing at 15 deg is killing your power. The only way remedy that is with better fuel. Since 93 isn't an option, you might consider E85. For SCT I have a MacBook as well but I use Parallels and do a virtual Windows 7 to make it work. Anyway, having a data log that showed boost, timing, air fuel ratio, and pump duty cycle would tell you a lot. JDM should be able to tell you all you need to know. They know their stuff.
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Old 11-16-2015
Nittro Nittro is offline
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You aren't nervios pulling 550rwh on stock bottom end? When there new they can take a beating but if seen 10year old perfectly tuned cars distroyed at just a hair over 500. I'm making 515rwh and would never hit the track I'd be to scared :)
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  #39  
Old 11-16-2015
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seelye76 seelye76 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nittro View Post
You aren't nervios pulling 550rwh on stock bottom end? When there new they can take a beating but if seen 10year old perfectly tuned cars distroyed at just a hair over 500. I'm making 515rwh and would never hit the track I'd be to scared :)

He's got an extreme with the forged internals.
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  #40  
Old 11-16-2015
seethrough seethrough is offline
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Originally Posted by naych281 View Post
If you look at my graph, it didn't climb like yours. What was your mod with this graph? Similar to mine. Also my cam is good to 6200-6400rpm only according to the spec card from Livernois
Comparing your dyno chart with seelye76's is pointless. There are so many differences between the two dynoe's and two cars that comparing them will just lead to frustration. Seelye76 has a stroker motor with ported heads, different intake, different cams, different throttle body, and is running on a different type of dyno. He has squeezed more power out the Series VI supercharger than pretty much everyone out there so using his car as a comparison is not the best option. Best to just concentrate on your dyno and work on the parts that you see are not where you want them.
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  #41  
Old 11-16-2015
seethrough seethrough is offline
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Your chart shows boost dropping after 4800rpm. This is why the tuner is telling you your supercharger is maxed. He may be correct. This drop is either due to belt slippage or an issue with the supercharger being unable to keep up. It may be that it is maxed out but I would be willing to bet that you have a bottleneck on the intake side of the supercharger. I have seen some guys measure vacuum at the air filter during wide open throttle to see if they have an intake restriction. Zero vacuum is preferred and will indicate that the supercharger inlet is unrestricted. If you want to throw money at it have the intake ported and invest in an aftermarket throttle body but you will need a retune for these modifications.
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2005 Dodge Ram SRT-10 QC
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2006-1296 Ford Mustang Saleen SC281
2004-013 Ford Mustang Salween Extreme-FOR SALE
1999 Ford Mustang Cobra convertible SA-20 clone
2006 Dodge Charger R/T
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8-SOLD
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2005-1343 Ford Mustang Saleen SC281. Barricade replica-SOLD
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  #42  
Old 11-16-2015
seethrough seethrough is offline
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UPDATE ON DYNO NUMBERS:
So to review whats going on with my car prior to jdm mail tune:

1. 483 whp and 520 torque
2. bogging and hesitation at first start for about 30 mins
3. cant rev at all in first 30 mins
4. cruise control didn't work( shop said maybe bad control )

With JDM mail tune:

515 who and 513 tq

1. drives great at first start and no hesitation

2. cruise control is back and working

Shop that did dyno run did do data logging and said he sees cam moving 2 to 7 % or degree . don't remember exact words. But he did say if we limit the cams( $800 labor, $600 phase limited and $550 custom tune ), I can pick up another 25-30 more. But because its lock , this tuner cant do much. Is there any way for me to ask to original shop to fix it( since they recommend to locked it ) or Im out of luck with it .... Is there any thing else i can do for $2000 to get more power?

When you install aftermarket cams in the 3V motors you may have to run cam phase restrictors or cam phase locks to prevent piston to valve contact with the higher lift/longer duration cams. Livernois should be able to tell you if you require either with your cam. By locking the cams you can eliminate a huge tuning problem and prevent a cam phaser failure that could cause damage. My guess is your tuner was looking for a mechanical fix to overcome the tuning obstacle and to be safe. I would not have done it myself unless Livernois specifically called for it. Cam phasing is one of the great things about these engines - you can't beat being able to retard and advance cams on the fly. If you have spent the money it may not be worth changing back at this time.
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2006 Dodge Ram SRT-10 RC
2006-1296 Ford Mustang Saleen SC281
2004-013 Ford Mustang Salween Extreme-FOR SALE
1999 Ford Mustang Cobra convertible SA-20 clone
2006 Dodge Charger R/T
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8-SOLD
2002 Big Dog Pitbull-SOLD
2005-1343 Ford Mustang Saleen SC281. Barricade replica-SOLD
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2015
naych281 naych281 is offline
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Thanks guys for all the feedback and ill just keep car the way it is just to keep it safe since unlocking it will get me only 20-25 whp . But i am considering ported supercharger lid and ford racing throttle body. Also from talking to JDM that did the mail order tune , loosing boost is normal for cam cars. but I'm not worry about it since old tune shop said that 483 whp was going to be it because of maxing supercharger but JDM tune was able to push out 515 with mail order tune...who knows maybe if i go to another tuner and get it custom , they can probably get 10-15 more but just don't want to waste another $550 for custom dyno tune. maybe ill get custom tune with new ported lids and throttle body
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2.3 Whipple
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Livernois Stage 2 blower cam very mild,
Afco Pro Heat Exchanger,
ID1000 injectors, Autolite HT0 gap at 32,
E85
Tune by Lito "THE GREAT"
684rwhp/ 527tq
1/4 Track Times: 11.10 @ 132 MT drag radials
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