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2005-2009 Saleen Mustang For all S281, S302, H281 and H302 models based on the Ford S-197 Mustang platform, with the exception of the S302 PJ (see below). Be sure to specify year, model and equipment if asking for help.

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  #1  
Old 04-11-2014
jtotheROC jtotheROC is offline
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Default Q: IAT's during Dyno pulls?

I Have an AFCO HE with fans and Meziere water pump, was getting 132 degrees at the end of the pull. Does anyone know of anything else to do that will get the temps down?

I have been reading up on Evans waterless coolant, its expensive, but if it gets 20-40 degrees cooler from what i read, worth it.

Was also reading about Meth injection, but would like not to have to resort to that.
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Old 04-11-2014
tkmaster tkmaster is offline
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Thats the problem of the Saleen blower so you have to live with...

The small intercooler core don't dissipate the temp as a Whipple or Kenne Bell so you are paying the price of the stock appearance.
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Old 04-11-2014
RedFire281 RedFire281 is offline
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Unless the ambient temperature was 90 degrees or higher, IMHO, 132 degrees after a dyno pull seems a bit high. My IATs rarely exceed about 30-40 degrees above ambient on a hot day in SoCal. That's with the hood down. On the dyno with the hood up and both the HE fans and the dyno fans going I think you might have something else going on if the outside temps was something less than 90 degrees.
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Old 04-11-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFire281 View Post
Unless the ambient temperature was 90 degrees or higher, IMHO, 132 degrees after a dyno pull seems a bit high. My IATs rarely exceed about 30-40 degrees above ambient on a hot day in SoCal. That's with the hood down. On the dyno with the hood up and both the HE fans and the dyno fans going I think you might have something else going on if the outside temps was something less than 90 degrees.

Not during the pull though especially with the pulley he has. Cruising not under boost, yes. WOT on dyno it's gonna rise since the small HE in the SC can't keep up no matter what you do. Just make sure you start the pull with IATs below 100 deg and you shouldn't pull timing before you hit the rev limiter.
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Old 04-13-2014
jtotheROC jtotheROC is offline
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Has anyone had any success at all using Evans coolant?
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2014
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I looked at their website and it doesn't say anything about being a better thermal conductor than water. It just has a higher boiling point and lasts the life of the engine.
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Old 04-15-2014
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It is roughly equal to the themal conductivity of water, but when you add a 50/50 mix with coolant or even 60/40 to protect the metal components from corrosion the thermal conductivity goes down significantly. So basically with the Evans coolant you get the cooling capacity of pure water with out the potential for engine and system damage from corrosion. As to whether it is worth it? At that price you can do a lot of coolant water exhanges for track days.
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2014
hennie hennie is offline
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I doubt if a different coolant will bring your temps down enough.
We experienced the same problem, on both Gt500's and 4.6L supercharged mustangs, and therefore we developed a high effeciency heat exchanger that is fully exposed to cool air. You just might want to check this out;

http://www.lekimportcars.nl/en/modif...heat-exchanger

Hennie
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Old 04-20-2014
Werecow Werecow is offline
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I looked at this link and then went on to the website. I gather you are running an additional heat exchanger above the original one. Is the top one yours or do you sell both? Are you still running fans on the bottom heat exchanger?
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Old 04-20-2014
hennie hennie is offline
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yes we do install our heat achanger behind the upper grill.
in this case we had the afco with the dual fans, and the fans in working order.
the fans are good, but in fact they are only functional al very low speeds, and like you can see on the logs the IAT temps are now getting lower under boost instead of rising.
The heat exhanger is mounted inline in the existing system, this is one of the most effective heat exchangers and specially developped for race cars and high performance cars.

Hennie
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  #11  
Old 04-24-2014
saleen56&80 saleen56&80 is offline
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The killer chiller is the best option in my opinion to keep temps down.
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  #12  
Old 04-24-2014
seethrough seethrough is offline
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I am in the middle of adding the Saleen upgraded intercooler kit and have been doing some mock up with the old intercooler to use inline with the upgrade. My thinking on this is that the heat exchanger is the real problem but there is very little that can be done to improve this part of the system so if I can get cooler fluid from the intercooler I can attack the problem that way. Here are a few shots of what I was thinking.







I used longer bolts and spacers to attach both intercoolers to the stock mounting point. I still have to work out the transitions from the upgraded intercoolers 1" lines to the 3/4" lines on the original intercooler; plumbing the output through the passenger side of the engine back to the heat exchanger; and ensuring the front bumper fits since the lower part of the grill extends back into this area. The system will use the EMP pump so I don't think there will be any issues with flow through the additional intercooler.
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Old 04-24-2014
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Good idea!
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Old 04-24-2014
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I just picked up a GT500 HE to do this with as I sold my stock Saleen HE'r. I've got an AFCO non fanned unit. I flipped the AFCO unit to the upper grill last summer and modified my bumper cover to make it work. I did this so I could get my brake cooling ducts to work. I'll put the GT500 HE'r in the lower grill so my brake cooling ducts can still be used. I'm also going to try 2 SVT pumps and then one Jabsco marine pump to see which setup flows better. I'll post the results. My plan is to start the work on Friday. My son has a baseball tourney this weekend so my progress depends on how many games we end up playing.
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Old 04-24-2014
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Here is an article from the GM guys "running pumps in series" Bosch and Jabsco

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/gonna...ling-motorama/
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  #16  
Old 04-26-2014
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Test results after a few hours of alone time in the garage. I was suprised.
I used a an LZT water Liquid flow meter 3-30gpm, on a closed system with an AFCO dual pass non fanned HE, Lethal Performance IC tank, and running through the Saleen Inter Cooler. I was trying to be as real world as possible so the only thing I added to the system was the gauge which is 12" long.

Test 1 using the stock pump did not move the needle at all less than 3gpm. Normal flow through the system. Bosch numbers 039022002

Test 2 FRP SVT Bosch pump that is supposed to be an upgrade from the Stock Saleen Pump Bosch numbers 039202209. Exact same results as the stock saleen pump less than 3gpm. No difference in the water being moved through the system.

Test 3 Jabsco 50840-0012 same results as the SVT and Saleen Pump except that it is very evident when looking at the IC tank that more water is being moved but the gauge again did not register any difference less than 3 gpm.

Test 4 Saleen pump and SVT pump in series. Finally got enough pressure in the system to register 4gpm on the gauge. Heavy water movement in the IC tank.

Test 5 Saleen pump in series with the Jabsco (saleen feeding the Jabsco). This setup resulted in more water motion in the coolant tank than Test 4 but the gauge only registered slightly above 3 gpm. Down side to this setup it blew the fuse pretty quickly.

I wish I would have purchased a 2-18 gpm gauge in hindsight. I thought based on the data from the Lingenfelter test that a 3-30 would okay but I was wrong. The 2-18 would've been the better choice. I will not however be ordering another gauge from Hong Kong to repeat this test as I am ready to get the car running and on the streets.

I am going to try one other test tomorrow time permitting. I set the Jabsco pump up with the wrong connectors 1/2" instead of 3/4". To make the comparison fair I will get the correct connectors and test that setup again.

I also need to figure out which fuse is blown as that was a first for blowing that fuse. I do have some video of each test, but that will have to wait as we will be at a baseball tourney tomorrow.

Leaning towards two Bosch pumps in series after my experiment. I am going to be adding a GT500 HE to my current setup to see what effect that has on AIT's.
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Last edited by tbrock; 04-26-2014 at 02:06 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-26-2014
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A quick update on my test of the Jabsco pump. I had a small 1/2 inch barbed connector so I was afraid that the pump was being choked down and not performing correctly. Today I went and got the correct 3/4 inch connectors and tested the Jabsco again. It improved the flow slightly but still not at the same level as the two Bosch pumps in series.
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2007 Shelby GT, Saleen SC Stage 3 with 3.0 pulley,mosaleen tensioner sys. UCA,LCA,BMR A arm Brace, SVE Dark Stainless 18x10's, Nitto NT05's, MGW Shifter, Pypes LT's with off-road X pipe, Bassani Axle backs, FRP 3.73's,BMR Watts Link, Steeda shaft loop, JLT 110mm CAI, FRP valve Covers, Brenspeed tuned. 12.425@114.63 4800 feet on Nitto 555's. Latest dyno is 492hp/463tq.
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2014
jrcalvin jrcalvin is offline
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Default 1/2" barb connector

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock View Post
A quick update on my test of the Jabsco pump. I had a small 1/2 inch barbed connector so I was afraid that the pump was being choked down and not performing correctly. Today I went and got the correct 3/4 inch connectors and tested the Jabsco again. It improved the flow slightly but still not at the same level as the two Bosch pumps in series.
Wow! Just an 1/2" dia barb connector? A 1/2" barb would mean less than 3/8" dia inside diameter. That is a pretty small diameter for a low flow, low pressure pump to pump any decent volume of water. You were right. You were choking the pump flow off from the start.

I would think that by using a 3/4" NPT fitting in the Jabsco you could have a 3/4" NPT/1" barb that would give an approximately 3/4" inside barb diameter for far better flow and feed to a 1" OD - 3/4" ID hose to the HE.

You would be surprised at the differences in inside diameters of even 1" dia barb. I bought 3 different brands of 3/4" NPT / 1? barbs before I found one that had an actual 3/4"+ ID.

jc
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Old 04-27-2014
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Yeah it was way too small, not sure what happened when I picked up the fittings the first time? I was surprised however that even with the correct fittings the pump still did not move more water in the closed system. I think it shows how restricted the system is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcalvin View Post
Wow! Just an 1/2" dia barb connector? A 1/2" barb would mean less than 3/8" dia inside diameter. That is a pretty small diameter for a low flow, low pressure pump to pump any decent volume of water. You were right. You were choking the pump flow off from the start.

I would think that by using a 3/4" NPT fitting in the Jabsco you could have a 3/4" NPT/1" barb that would give an approximately 3/4" inside barb diameter for far better flow and feed to a 1" OD - 3/4" ID hose to the HE.

You would be surprised at the differences in inside diameters of even 1" dia barb. I bought 3 different brands of 3/4" NPT / 1? barbs before I found one that had an actual 3/4"+ ID.

jc
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Old 04-27-2014
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I did this with my 2000 Saleen but put 2nd heatexchanger like the 1987 Grand national... between lower radiator and oil pan, built scoop to force air into it...plus sealed intercooler openings.. lowered IAT 20
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  #21  
Old 04-27-2014
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You will find the fittings for the intercooler are only .56 in diameter. Why this was done, I have no idea. I got a new set of fittings and bored them out to .60 I will let you know what happens.
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Old 04-28-2014
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I'll throw this out for discussion. I reversed the flow through the IC as it worked better with my setup. I have the IC tank on the drivers side so I moved the outlet to my tank from the left (passenger side) to the drivers side, and now the drivers side will be the inlet (cool) side. I don't think it really matters and the flow in this direction was just as good as the other.
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  #23  
Old 04-28-2014
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Can you shoot a video that shows the flow of water going into your recovery tank.
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  #24  
Old 04-28-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
Can you shoot a video that shows the flow of water going into your recovery tank.

I'll shoot some video of it tonight and if I get real ambitious I'll up load each of the test videos.
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2014
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Anyone know where I can get a Saleen pump bracket? I looked on the speedlab site but they barely have any parts listed.
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  #26  
Old 04-29-2014
seethrough seethrough is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock View Post
Anyone know where I can get a Saleen pump bracket? I looked on the speedlab site but they barely have any parts listed.
You can call them. I had them put together the brackets, hoses and misc parts to complete my upgrade kit.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seethrough View Post
You can call them. I had them put together the brackets, hoses and misc parts to complete my upgrade kit.
Thanks I found a used one.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2014
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Default 2 Bosch pumps in Series

Here is the video of my final setup showing the flow through coolant tank. I have the first pump being fed from the bottom of my IC tank through pump 1 which feeds the top of pump 2 which fills the HE through the bottom out the top of the HE'r to the IC. Much better flow than stock saleen pump. Next step is to see how it actually effects the AIT's.
http://youtu.be/owSbedfNlIE
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Last edited by tbrock; 04-29-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2014
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Default Two IC pumps

Your setup has two pumps in "series", one feeding the other. This will provide only a "slight" increase in flow as you noted. You can increase the total flow using two pumps ,but the two pumps must be in "parallel" , not in "series". You need two separate feeds from the IC tank, one to each pump and then combine the two outflows into a single line. This essentially doubles the total flow.

Total flow = #1 pump flow + #2 pump flow

jc

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Old 04-29-2014
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Test 1 video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSocyL70yA

Test 2:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWxEwLr1Zwg

Test 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhdhlN7ANuk

Test 4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9o0QcqPSSk
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  #31  
Old 04-29-2014
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Really nice job on your testing. Thanks for posting, I know how much work you put into this. Here is an interesting article from the Cadillac guys who ran
a similar tests with the two pumps you tested. The bottleneck is the fittings going to the intercooler.

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/gonna...ling-motorama/
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Old 04-29-2014
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Default Pump testing

What I liked about your setup and approach was the whole setup you used that was essentially an actual "real world" setup and thereby removed various "test" variables.


So who can dispute the flow meter readings now?

jc
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Old 04-29-2014
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Great job, really appreciate all of your efforts and most of all sharing.

Pressure readings on the system would be some really great info.

Man, i watched your test with the Jabsco and it doesn't look anything like mine. Mine is moving some water vs the Saleen pump. I don't have a flow meter on mine but there is a HUGE difference. When i originally test my stuff it was on the car but open system, water into graduated containers on a timer.

Again, thanks for sharing.


-Mikie
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  #34  
Old 04-29-2014
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I will be doing the same soon. Instead I will be running two Jabsco pumps. The IAT gauge will let me know if I am going in th right direction.
I spoke to a Garrett engineer yesterday who said at 550 HP at the crank we need to be moving the water at 11 GPM. He also stated that are stock setup Intercooler, Heat exchanger and pump were designed to work in concert. So as we move the water faster we must also have an improved Heat exchanger able to handle it. I have bored out the interccoler fittings, so it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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Old 04-29-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
I will be doing the same soon. Instead I will be running two Jabsco pumps. The IAT gauge will let me know if I am going in th right direction.
I spoke to a Garrett engineer yesterday who said at 550 HP at the crank we need to be moving the water at 11 GPM. He also stated that are stock setup Intercooler, Heat exchanger and pump were designed to work in concert. So as we move the water faster we must also have an improved Heat exchanger able to handle it. I have bored out the interccoler fittings, so it will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Are you going to 1"?
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  #36  
Old 04-29-2014
jrcalvin jrcalvin is offline
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Default Two pumps

Just after I posted my reply, I had another thought relative to the actual installation of the two pumps.

Could one pump be mounted in the normal passenger side location, using the Saleen pump bracket, and receiving flow from the IC tank and pumping into the HE. Then the 2nd pump could be located in the mirror location on the driver's side using another Saleen pump bracket and then receive flow from the HE outflow and the pump output would go to the SC intercooler?

This would be a clean installation using another Saleen bracket and then just splicing the 2nd pump into the "HE output / intercooler input" hose and achieve the same total increased flow results?

jc
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Old 04-29-2014
hazmat hazmat is offline
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tbrock,

Can you tell us what the posted/advertised pressure drop or resistance is for the inline flow meter that you used.

I'm suspecting that the inline spring meter is incresing the pressure resistance in the system, thus POSSIBLY, decreasing flow??????

We ran into this with some large pumps at work and ended up switching to some high dollar ultrasonic flow meters for accurate test.
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Old 04-29-2014
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The 1" lines is a great idea, but I could not find anyone who could make me a intercooler with 1" 1n/out. I called Fluidyne and Garrett and they said they could not help.
The pump on each side of the Heat Exchanger was how I was going to go until I called Lingenfelter, They shot me down, and said to run them in series but you could run teh two pumps before or after the heat exchanger. The two Jabsco pumps I have are pre-Cyclone and the 18510-0020. These pumps are 18510-0000 they pumped more fluid against pressure and drew less amps.
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Old 04-29-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
The 1" lines is a great idea, but I could not find anyone who could make me a intercooler with 1" 1n/out. I called Fluidyne and Garrett and they said they could not help.
The pump on each side of the Heat Exchanger was how I was going to go until I called Lingenfelter, They shot me down, and said to run them in series but you could run teh two pumps before or after the heat exchanger. The two Jabsco pumps I have are pre-Cyclone and the 18510-0020. These pumps are 18510-0000 they pumped more fluid against pressure and drew less amps.

I thought about the same thing. I had a guy make my last 4 air to water intercoolers for my race car. The current one is a 4000 hp air to water with 1.5" inlet and outlets.He's great. I thought about contacting him to see if he'd be interested in doing this.

If you'd like to contact him, his name is Robert @ Chiseled Performance. You can find his website online.
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Old 04-29-2014
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Hey Thanks for the info. Increasing the diameter would sure help the flow.

Thank you,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcalvin View Post
Just after I posted my reply, I had another thought relative to the actual installation of the two pumps.

Could one pump be mounted in the normal passenger side location, using the Saleen pump bracket, and receiving flow from the IC tank and pumping into the HE. Then the 2nd pump could be located in the mirror location on the driver's side using another Saleen pump bracket and then receive flow from the HE outflow and the pump output would go to the SC intercooler?

This would be a clean installation using another Saleen bracket and then just splicing the 2nd pump into the "HE output / intercooler input" hose and achieve the same total increased flow results?

jc
06SaleenExtreme has been talking with an engineer with supercharger experience and he said to place the pumps in series prior to the HE. 06 please correct me if I am off base here. I actually just bought another saleen bracket to do just this out of curiosity? Right now one of my pumps is sitting on top of my AFCO similar to the GT500 setup, but I like the idea of the pumps on the corners.
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Old 04-29-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcalvin View Post
What I liked about your setup and approach was the whole setup you used that was essentially an actual "real world" setup and thereby removed various "test" variables.


So who can dispute the flow meter readings now?

jc
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Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
Great job, really appreciate all of your efforts and most of all sharing.

Pressure readings on the system would be some really great info.

Man, i watched your test with the Jabsco and it doesn't look anything like mine. Mine is moving some water vs the Saleen pump. I don't have a flow meter on mine but there is a HUGE difference. When i originally test my stuff it was on the car but open system, water into graduated containers on a timer.

Again, thanks for sharing.


-Mikie
Thanks I know it isn't perfect but I was really trying to see how the pumps would perform with real restrictions in place. I wish I would have had a more sensitive gauge. Hindsight I should have gone with a 1-10 gpm gauge or a digital gauge of some sort (those cost several hundred which was out of the question).
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I originally wanted to place one pump before and the other after the heat exchanger. The engineer at both Lingenfelter and PSE stated to run the pumps inline. Lingenfelter later stated he did not believe it mattered if you ran the two pumps before or after but to keep the two pumps together.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
tbrock,

Can you tell us what the posted/advertised pressure drop or resistance is for the inline flow meter that you used.

I'm suspecting that the inline spring meter is incresing the pressure resistance in the system, thus POSSIBLY, decreasing flow??????

We ran into this with some large pumps at work and ended up switching to some high dollar ultrasonic flow meters for accurate test.
Here is what I bought. I thought that the gauge maybe two big or require more pressure than these pumps can generate. Even if the gauge is in correct two pumps obviously produced enough pressure/flow to actually register on the gauge. Something none of the single pumps could muster.

http://ydmeter.en.alibaba.com/produc...low_meter.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
Great job, really appreciate all of your efforts and most of all sharing.

Pressure readings on the system would be some really great info.

Man, i watched your test with the Jabsco and it doesn't look anything like mine. Mine is moving some water vs the Saleen pump. I don't have a flow meter on mine but there is a HUGE difference. When i originally test my stuff it was on the car but open system, water into graduated containers on a timer.

Again, thanks for sharing.


-Mikie
I did notice that when I had a little less fluid in the tank say 1" below the top of the tank that the flow would appear like it was really cruising compared to when I filled the tank to 1/4" from the top of the tank.
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new GT500 (2013) IC pump and HE. Pump is $250-$325

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/ind...2#entry1534993

looks very similar to the zl1 pump.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/LPEforum...esting-results
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Old 04-29-2014
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We just ran a pump test which went through the heat exchanger through the intercooler with ported out fittings. It ran 2 gallons in 18 seconds with the 18510-0000 pump.

When I take the intercoller out of the system I run 2 gallons in 8 seconds with the same pump. With the intercooler fittings left at the original size it would have reduced flow by quite a bit. Note the was not closed while doing this test. The water flows fast through the heat exchanger and dies when it goes to the intercooler.

If my two pumps do not get me my GPM I want, but I think it will. I am going with Hazmat's contact and get a intercooler with 1" fitting. The stock Intercooler fittings are only .56 ID

Good input and test info you guys are providing. Thanks everyone
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Old 04-30-2014
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Default Pump tests

So we spend time trying to reduce IATs by increasing pump flow and increasing HE capacity and air flow to the HE but conclude that the existing SC intercooler in/out fitting dimensions are the flow restrictors.

Is it the inlet/outlet intercooler fittings reducing the flow or the internals of the intercooler itself?

If you increase the OD of the intercooler fittings to 1", (minimum .75 ID), then you also need to make sure the the return hose and the return fitting in the IC tank are also minimum .75 ID and probably other system hoses and other fittings as well.

Maybe a group buy on an intercooler with 1" OD fittings?

jc
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Old 04-30-2014
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Yes you are right, consistent fitting size, or you get pump or pumps that can push it through fast enough. In a week or so, I will install the second pump. If the temps come down we know we are on the right track.
I know its about the right balance of components for the setup you have. Each car that has a part unique will be different. I'm running a triple core, different pump, and 2.87 pulley. I like Hazmat idea for his contact with custom intercooler. The 1" sure seems the way to go. Just my thoughts.
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fyi I've got a few pumps for sale.
http://saleenforums.soec.org/showthread.php?t=17386
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