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2005-2009 Saleen Mustang For all S281, S302, H281 and H302 models based on the Ford S-197 Mustang platform, with the exception of the S302 PJ (see below). Be sure to specify year, model and equipment if asking for help.

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  #1  
Old 05-29-2013
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Default The million dollar question " Stock Pump vs Meziere"

I have been researching the internet for over 5 months reading articles about how to lower IAT temps, IC pumps, Heat Exchangers, and recovery tanks. The majority of these articles made sense, but there was one topic nobody could agree on. And that was intercooler pumps. The stock pump vs Meziere pump. Even the folks at the Mercedes sight were in disagreement on the pumps.
A few months back i installed a new stock Ford/Rousch pump and had the 6 year old stock pump handy which still worked fine. I also just purchased a new Meziere 136 pump and decided to do a flow test of the two pumps. The Ford/Rousch has been stated at 5 to 6 GPM and the Meziere at 20 GPM.

As you can see by the photos, I duplicated the height of the pumps as would be in your car. The position of the heat exchanger and the length of hose to it, The angle, length and height of the hose coming out of the heat exchanger as if it routed back to the intercooler.
The power was delivered by my Ford Focus running during the tests. I did two test per pump with a 5 gallon tank feeding from the bottom just as your recovery tank would. I used the stock 3/4" heater hose through out.

I want to state that when I spoke to Van at Raven Racing he stated the upgraded Meziere pump would make no difference.
I spoke with Jim Jr at JDM who stated the same thing on the upgraded pump. Both of you guys were Correct. On both test runs for each pump they both emptied the 5 gallons in 43 to 45 seconds. I was shocked with the results from the Meziere pump.

I phoned Meziere's toll free number and wanted to get their input on the test performed.
I spoke to to the Tech at Meziere pumps and send him the photos of the test. I had asked him for his thoughts on why the Rousch stock pump and the Meziere had flowed the same amount of water in the same amount of time.
The tech (Greg) had stated, that first off the 20 GPM rating was what the pump produced in an open environment with no restriction. I also asked him the question posed for flow rate on single pass or dual pass. Greg stated he thought both pumps would equally pass the same amount of water weather single pass or dual pass.
Greg also stated that in a closed system we would loose about 10 percent water flow due to pressure in the system. Greg thought the Meziere may pump a litttle more water in a closed system due to the way it is built. Greg also stated that both pumps which are centrifugal in design are not high pressure pumps. I asked Greg if I could quote his statements which he said
was fine to do.
I wanted to share this test with the forum , Please do what is right for you. I really wanted to know if changing pumps would help my IAT's at the track.

Thanks,

Wyatt
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Old 05-29-2013
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I have encountered the same results when running three different Mezierre Pumps (20gpm, 35gpm & 55gpm) on my Air to Water intercooler set ups on my race car. I tried all three pumps on 1000, 2400, 3000 & 4000 HP Intercoolers. They all sucked!

I have another Mez 20 gpm that i was going to put on my Saleen but have been reluctant to because of my previous experiences. I'm glade i havent because i'm seeing more and more of this coming out now.

I have to say for a pump manufacturer to flow rate their pump with 0 restriction is, in my opinion ridiculous. Doesn anymore run these pumps on a system with 0 restriction? NO!

Recently the guys over at Lingenfelter did some testing and they came to the same conclusions. Basically the mez pumps are no better than stock in MOST applications.

Here is a link on yellowbullet:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=564702

-Mikie
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Old 05-29-2013
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Take a look at these:

http://
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Old 05-29-2013
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http://
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Old 05-29-2013
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Wyatt,

I see the HE in your picture but not the IC. Did you test with an IC inline also?

If not i bet the results would have been even worse with the IC inline.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Makes me happy that i have the upgraded cooling system from Saleen that comes with the EMP pump! Very good info guys, thanks!
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Old 05-29-2013
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In trying to understand some things, I've got a couple of questions.......
1)Why did you double the pumps height? Ford vs Meziere?
2)you're saying that the hose is at the bottom of the Pail. How full was the pail? Half full, 75% or 100%?
3)Is this a true 5-gal pail or is it one of those 6-gal pails that we call five gallon pail? I say this because some times they actually have more capacity and still we call it 5-gal pails. I'll explain later why this could play a big factor. A typical 5-gal pail dimensions are: 14-3/8" H x Top diameter of 11-5/8" x Lower diameter 10--1/8".
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Old 05-29-2013
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Just in case you need a picture to go with this data:

http://
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Old 05-29-2013
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Hazmat,

No I did not have an intercooler to plug into, but yes it would have slowed further. Thanks for posting your info in addition, That is really nice data you posted.

Thanks,

Wyatt
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Old 05-29-2013
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It was 5 gallons of water measured from a 1 gallon container. I had to move the Meziere pump higher due to the Ford pump fitting was at the top, and the Meziere fitting was at the bottom. The Ford pump had to travel a higher incline than the Meziere pump by about 6". But I also wanted to keep the hose length the same on both tests, but I could not do both. I could have lowered the bucket, but then that would have been almost by a foot, so I settled for 6" instead.

Thanks,
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Old 05-29-2013
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I would like to go on the record and say that the data i presented was flow data. It does not say which pump "COOLED" better. Some people will say that faster is not necessarily better and to some extent i agree with that.

However, i can say that the data tends to suggest that the remote Mez 20 gpm may not be worth the effort and money when compared to other pumps.

I can say that when i conduted my own testing on my race car slower pumps never cooled better. I do not have data on my street car to support the same conclusion. I welcome that if anyone does.

The key is matching all components to work correctly with each other.
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Old 05-29-2013
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I gotcha!
Yeah, when you check the Meziere pump info they won't give you a pump performance curve, so you can't see where the 20gpms are coming from. Those had to be estimated at a specific pumping head, but they don't say.
Good job estimating that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
It was 5 gallons of water measured from a 1 gallon container. I had to move the Meziere pump higher due to the Ford pump fitting was at the top, and the Meziere fitting was at the bottom. The Ford pump had to travel a higher incline than the Meziere pump by about 6". But I also wanted to keep the hose length the same on both tests, but I could not do both. I could have lowered the bucket, but then that would have been almost by a foot, so I settled for 6" instead.

Thanks,
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Old 05-29-2013
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In the one chart what is the difference between the two different EMP pumps? And which one of the EMP pumps is the better flowing one?
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Old 05-29-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaja6009 View Post
In the one chart what is the difference between the two different EMP pumps? And which one of the EMP pumps is the better flowing one?
It appears to me from reading the post that its the same pump, but one is programmed to flow better.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Great research Wyatt! Seriously! You just slapped Mezeire in the face and I am ashamed of myself for buying their product and installing it in my car over the perfectly running OEM I had in there after finding out that they claim 20gpm with no restriction. So how do they test it if there is no water to be moved? What a load!

So where can i get this EMP pump that flows the highest? It is programmable? Who programs it, and what are its oem applications? Seems that it flows twice as much as the Mezeire or the OEM and that could give me that extra drop in IAT's. I know that after the Mezeire I saw a drop, but on the other hand i did put in the JPC coolant tank at the same time.

Thanks Again!
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Old 05-29-2013
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Thanks Oren,

Hey I bought one to. Don't feel bad. I just wanted to see how much better it flowed before I removed the front facia off the car. I figured since I had the parts already, I wanted to see, as well as know the difference.
I thought for sure the Meziere pump would far out perform the stock pump. The Meziere is a really stout pump and sure it will last along time.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
Thanks Oren,

Hey I bought one to. Don't feel bad. I just wanted to see how much better it flowed before I removed the front facia off the car. I figured since I had the parts already, I wanted to see, as well as know the difference.
I thought for sure the Meziere pump would far out perform the stock pump. The Meziere is a really stout pump and sure it will last along time.
Yeah it seems like a well built unit, but that just gets to me how they market the product with that false advertising to con the buyer. I'm gonna start looking into that EMP pump that flows 7.7 on the chart. If anyone has any info for me as to where i can get one that will flow that 7.7 I would appreciate it. I saw there were 2 models of the EMP tested but someone else said it was the same but programmed different.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Never mind, I found that higher flowing EMP pump at Lingenfelter for $550.. Ouch! Lol
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Old 05-29-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06281E View Post
Never mind, I found that higher flowing EMP pump at Lingenfelter for $550.. Ouch! Lol
Yeah, makes the Saleen unit not look so expensive. The Saleen package comes with larger HE with dual SPAL fans, EMP pump, wiring harness, brackets, etc. for about $1300. I would also expect a single pass unit to have less restriction and increase flow.
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Old 05-29-2013
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This sucks as I just added my Meziere 20gpm. I was gonna use the EMP Stewart pump but was talked out of it by a lot of people.

Lingenfelter sells 2 version.
Both should flow better than the Meziere and stock. I found more info on this. Read this. This is Lingenfelters thread on their own forum.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/LPEforum...esting-results

I have heard that the intercoolers (in the blower case) on our cars are very restrictive compared to say a GT500's intercooler. So we may see similar results as the charts. The meziere pumps lose everything when there is high pressure in the system.

I always asked myself why Saleen used the Stewart pump in their upgraded heat exchanger system, when they could of easily used a Meziere. Maybe they saw that the Meziere in their Saleen system did not flow much better than stock.

Im pretty sure Im gonna give this a try sometime soon. Maybe this week. I am gonna call Lingenfelter and ask them some questions though.

Also the only downside to this pump is the lower flowing Stewart pump can draw 9 amps and the reprogrammed for higher flow one can draw 19!
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Old 05-29-2013
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I found a Stewart EMP pump on Ebay for 435 shipped. But I looked a minute ago and it was sold! So which one of you guys got it? LOL...
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Old 05-30-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaja6009 View Post
I found a Stewart EMP pump on Ebay for 435 shipped. But I looked a minute ago and it was sold! So which one of you guys got it? LOL...
Probably wasn't the reprogrammed one though huh?
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Old 05-30-2013
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I find it funny that "Mr. 281," the "expert," and the guy pushing this mod, has yet to make a statement in defense of it. Interesting...
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Old 05-30-2013
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From the charts from Lingenfelter I came up with a plan.
We don't know what the pressure is at the pump.
Those charts are showing that pressure at the pump is what you need to know when choosing one of the pumps tested.
How would I be able to measure this?

Also I always thought it was weird that Saleen chose the Stewart pump for their upgrade kit. They could of chosen a Meziere that cost less than half. Maybe they know what the pressure is in the system at the pump and saw that the Stewart pump was the only pump that was actually flowing a lot more water?

I think Im gonna ask Lingenfelter if I can buy the standard Stewart pump and if I need more flow, maybe I can send it back in to be reprogrammed.
From the charts the standard Stewart pump flowed a lot more than our Bosch pumps. The reprogrammed pump flow ALOT more than both.

281 helped me make the choice for the 20 GPM Meziere, but other people on other forums chimed in too and said to get it. But my mistake was comparing guys running GT500 systems to my Saleen system. The Saleen system especially the intercooler under the blower may be a lot more restrictive than GT500 stuff.So a Meziere on a GT500 that has less pressure in the system may flow OK according to the chart. Put the same pump in the Saleen system and since the pressure is higher your GPMs drop big time.

Chime in if you think any of my thinking is wrong. Im just thinking out loud here.

I may just be a lab rat and buy the Stewart pump (standard) and see what happens. I mean I bought the Meziere wanting more flow and apparently the flow is around the same. So I have not really increased the flow much if at all.
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Old 05-30-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06281E View Post
Probably wasn't the reprogrammed one though huh?
No it wasn't the reprogrammed one. I wonder if you buy one can you have someone reprogram it and how much it will cost.

Ebay sold a used one for $150!!! A guy was selling it and said it was never installed and just sat in his garage.

It was probably someone who read this new info on any of the forums. This new info is every where. Camaro forums, Mustang forums and Corvette forums.

I hope Lingenfelter doesn't sell out of the these before I make my move.
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Old 05-31-2013
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I spoke to Tim this morning at Lingenfelter. You can return the the stock version of the EMP pump to be reprogrammed. Ensure you change your wiring
to support the draw from the pump.
I asked Tim if they had data on IAT's from each pump. Tim stated they are working on how to produce a climate controlled area
to measure IAT's with each pump. They want to make sure sure the environment is the same for each test and each pump.
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Old 06-04-2013
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Dont remember who recommended the Mez to me, but I was told when I upgraded to the dual pass IC and bigger coolant tank that the stock pump would not be able to move the coolant as efficient as it does in stock form. I was told that the Mez 20 would be able to push the volume and speed needed to take advantage of all the upgraded parts, therefore creating a decrease in temps.

Is it true? Hellz if I know. Car sits in the shop and I sits here in front of this comp in Afghanistan reading about all of you enjoy driving your cars...hahaha.
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Old 06-05-2013
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I just ordered a marine pump that will be coming from Florida. It has the potential of being an excellent intercooler pump. I am testing the flow rate as soon as it arrives. I will keep you all posted.
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Old 06-05-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88_50 View Post
Dont remember who recommended the Mez to me, but I was told when I upgraded to the dual pass IC and bigger coolant tank that the stock pump would not be able to move the coolant as efficient as it does in stock form. I was told that the Mez 20 would be able to push the volume and speed needed to take advantage of all the upgraded parts, therefore creating a decrease in temps.

Is it true? Hellz if I know. Car sits in the shop and I sits here in front of this comp in Afghanistan reading about all of you enjoy driving your cars...hahaha.

Thanks for your service.... Hope you come home soon to drive your car.
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Old 06-05-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
I find it funny that "Mr. 281," the "expert," and the guy pushing this mod, has yet to make a statement in defense of it. Interesting...
As you know, we just moved and that has consumed most of my time for the last month - so getting into a ****ing war about pumps isnt the on the top of my "to-do" list. And as a matter of fact, Im NOT the only one selling these pumps, just about everyone is.

And to comment on the pumps, we've used Meziere for our selection of pumps since we opened, sold them at the previous companies I've worked at and I've used them on personal cars I've built for the last near 14 years. With all the product of theirs I've dealt with, less than 1% of everone I've ever had to deal with has failed. Not a bad record in my professional opinion. Meziere makes a great product and stands behind it 100% like all the vendors we carry do.

As far as the flow comparisions go, we will conduct some test to determine the difference between the Bosch pump and the Meziere and report. The Stewart EMP pump is certainly a MUCH better pump and always has been with relation to the size core you are using. Put ebay asside, the EMP pump is VERY expensive as well. Most have a heart attack to spend $300 for the Meziere, let alone the MSRP of a new EMP in excess of $500.

What I can tell you now without hard data, everyone we've installed or sold as a kit with a AFCO Pro HE, and a Meziere WP136S have ALL reported HUGE drops in IAT's....the average being in the 25 degree range. The Bosch pump simply doesnt have the "torque" to move the water in a larger heat exchanger. The test that we're shown here represent very little restriction. In a real world test, we are going to use a Saleen Supercharger Intercooler inline, and an AFCO Pro heat exchanger to replicate the applied use difference between a Bosch pump and a Meziere.

Even if they are the same flow, which I doubt the Saleen replacement cost for the Bosch is $299.99 which im sure could be sourced cheaper, or the Meziere pump at $241. How many of you had the Bosch pump fail (we have one in the shop right now btw) vs. how many of had the Meziere pump fail....I can only recall one. The quality of the Meziere is there.

To the claims that Meziere "missrepresented" their GPM, I wonder if anyone reviewed the statistics on Meziere's site...

"Standard motor provides 20 gallons per minute free flow rating" or http://www.meziere.com/ps-892-860-wp136s.aspx

We know they work, and work well. If you have bought a Meziere pump and AFCO Pro, post up your results. If you put a higher GPM pump in, doesnt mean its going to cool your system down more. Faster in this case is not always better. The proper flow rate really makes the difference in heat disapation.
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  #31  
Old 06-05-2013
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06SaleenExtreme 06SaleenExtreme is offline
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When I installed my AFTCO dual fan with the stock Bosch pump, my IAT's lowered in the 20-25 degree range. This is with running the 2.87 pulley which will generate more heat from the added boost.
Meziere does make an excellent product and they state it should last for 80,000 miles according to their tech support line.
Their weak link is keeping flow under increased resistance. Aftco, Meziere cannot tell you if moving the water faster will lower your IAT's, I know because I have called them. They should be able to tell you, this is their business.
I have read and studied, and made numerous calls on this subject for over 5 months. I phoned Lingenfelter last week and they stated with a remote pump I could not move the water faster enough with what is out their.
I have recorded IAT's on the track running for 20 minutes at a time. I have a new pump coming, if this flows like I think it will (7 to 8 GPM) under resistance then I will install it, and will all know if it increases or decreases
temps. If moving the water faster does lower the IAT's you will find several studies out their on various pumps. These studies will show peformance under head pressure, the amps drawn under pressure, More amps more heat, and service life. The pump I am testing is a marine pump, very well made and built, bronze impeller and draws 8 amps. The pump is under $200.00.
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  #32  
Old 06-06-2013
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Sounds good. I'd live to learn about this pump if it serves better cooling. It's it a 12v setup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SaleenExtreme View Post
When I installed my AFTCO dual fan with the stock Bosch pump, my IAT's lowered in the 20-25 degree range. This is with running the 2.87 pulley which will generate more heat from the added boost.
Meziere does make an excellent product and they state it should last for 80,000 miles according to their tech support line.
Their weak link is keeping flow under increased resistance. Aftco, Meziere cannot tell you if moving the water faster will lower your IAT's, I know because I have called them. They should be able to tell you, this is their business.
I have read and studied, and made numerous calls on this subject for over 5 months. I phoned Lingenfelter last week and they stated with a remote pump I could not move the water faster enough with what is out their.
I have recorded IAT's on the track running for 20 minutes at a time. I have a new pump coming, if this flows like I think it will (7 to 8 GPM) under resistance then I will install it, and will all know if it increases or decreases
temps. If moving the water faster does lower the IAT's you will find several studies out their on various pumps. These studies will show peformance under head pressure, the amps drawn under pressure, More amps more heat, and service life. The pump I am testing is a marine pump, very well made and built, bronze impeller and draws 8 amps. The pump is under $200.00.
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  #33  
Old 06-06-2013
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Yes it is a 12v pump. Here are some specs the company posted:

PERFORMANCE (Nominal 12 Vdc System)
AMPS FT. OF WATER GPM
8 2 15
7 6 11
6.3 10 5.5
5.3 13 Shutoff


The intake and outlet ports have internal 3/4" pipe
threads. Brass or plastic pipe fittings may be used to
suit the installation.
The pump head may
be mounted at 180° on the motor to accommodate
plumbing as needed. The pump may be mounted
vertically.
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Old 06-06-2013
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This may be a dumb question, but can a pump be too fast? The water needs to spend some time in the heat exchanger to dissipate heat, doesn't it?
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Old 06-06-2013
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Lot of good info in this thread on S197 Forums:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102456

They seem to think the faster you flow, the better.
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Old 06-06-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seelye76 View Post
Lot of good info in this thread on S197 Forums:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102456

They seem to think the faster you flow, the better.
I would agree.. Getting the hot water out of the superchargers intercooler as fast as possible will lower the IAT's IMO.. Waiting to see how that pump works out for Wyatt! If it works the way it says it does I will get one as well.. I see a lot of Mezeires on eBay soon..

Still hard to imagine that the 55gpm Mezeire flows so close to the 20gpm, either Lingenfelter is marketing for Stewart or Mezeire is straight up gay.. One of the 2, Lol!
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  #37  
Old 06-06-2013
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I wish I could talk to Saleen and find out why they chose the EMP Stewart pump. THey could of easily used a Meizere pump in their upgraded heat exchanger package. Maybe they chose the EMP because they saw what it is being said on S197.

The guy on S197 makes the manifold to let you use any GT500 supercharger on a 3V. I have gotten ALOT of great info from him on many car issues. His intercooler system on his car is one of the craziest I have ever seen. He has tested the system not just by measuring IATs but also has sensors throughout the system. He claims that on his intercoolers and GT500s every time he went with a bigger pump it cooled better. But to make sure you have enough heat exchanger too. Bell Intercoolers makes the intercooler for his manifold and they told him you cannot move the water too fast through the system because the intercooler itself will slow it down since its the biggest restriction in the system. When funds allow Im moving up to the EMP pump.
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  #38  
Old 06-07-2013
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jaja6009,

I’m going to speculate on why they didn’t use the Meziere pump but my guess is that they didn’t know about it. Back in the 2005ish when Saleen created the Extreme Heat Exchanger for the E-cars, this pump wasn’t used for intercoolers. Similar to what Wyatt is using, this pump was created for Marine bilge pump applications and Race applications. Its "torque" and durability proved itself very useful and dependable in these applications. When larger Heat Exchangers started hitting the market in a "bolt-on" non-custom way, shops like ours started exploring with options to add more strength to the flow, not necessarily higher GPM.

We have ordered an EMP pump this morning and will be looking for a local car to test on in real world track/street applications and will report on the findings. We are looking for someone who tracks their car and daily drives it. You will get all the installation free, and the pump free should you choose to keep it. We will need some data in return. I feel like this is the best way to solve this with the Saleen application. If we determine there is a genuine cooling efficiency increase we will offer these as well, but not until we have proven its worth due to the serious increase in cost of parts, materials and installation cost. Bear in mind, the simple 20-amp relay kits we use and the wiring to support a 8-amp pump is not sufficient for a 18-amp pump.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaja6009 View Post
I wish I could talk to Saleen and find out why they chose the EMP Stewart pump. THey could of easily used a Meizere pump in their upgraded heat exchanger package. Maybe they chose the EMP because they saw what it is being said on S197.

The guy on S197 makes the manifold to let you use any GT500 supercharger on a 3V. I have gotten ALOT of great info from him on many car issues. His intercooler system on his car is one of the craziest I have ever seen. He has tested the system not just by measuring IATs but also has sensors throughout the system. He claims that on his intercoolers and GT500s every time he went with a bigger pump it cooled better. But to make sure you have enough heat exchanger too. Bell Intercoolers makes the intercooler for his manifold and they told him you cannot move the water too fast through the system because the intercooler itself will slow it down since its the biggest restriction in the system. When funds allow Im moving up to the EMP pump.
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  #39  
Old 06-12-2013
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For the sake of clarity, my brothers and I here at Meziere Enterprises felt it important to give some input here. There have been some pretty harsh words both about our product and about our integrity as a business. It is first of all important to note that we have developed these pumps primarily for engine cooling and not intercoolers. It is the nature of our industry for enthusiasts such as those found on this forum to take a solution from one system (engine cooling) and apply it to another. In this case it would be fine if the restrictions were similar but we have found the intercoolers and plumbing to be all over the board. Our centrifugal pumps will work great in some systems and not as well in others. The system needs to be engineered as a complete idea with all of the componenets working together. That's why the 281 Motorsports system works and IATs are reduced. He has done the real-world testing to prove it out before offering it as a solution to his customers.
In response to Hazmat's comment about rating the pumps at zero restriction, that has been the advertising standard long before we entered the marketplace. Pump graphs are definitely more appropriate and we fully understand that. Most consumers do not but we are happy to help anyone who calls in to our tech to determine if our pumps will be a good solution. We always indicate that the rating is "free flow" and we have not tried to hide anything or deceive anyone.
The 20 GPM pump was intended to be a good replacement for the "bilge pumps" that guys were using to cool their small block chevy dragsters. The product fulfills that requirement in excellent fashion and lasts thousands of hours longer than the pump it was intended to replace. Although early on we may have done a little bit of marketing to intercooler consumers, we quickly started to understand the complexity involved and the confusions that are being laid out here. I feel it is also important to reiterate - the 20GPM pump is less than half the cost of the EMP. Also, the base EMP pump consumes 50% more power (9 amps) and the reprogrammed pump is consuming 19 amps! These figures are on the Lingenfelter thread. Chalk this up to "You don't get something for nothing".
There is one more important item to be aware of when reading this graph. The notes indicate that the "stock diameter coolant hoses" were used. With centrifugal pumps the volume of water presented to the impeller is critical. That is why our 55 GPM pumps have very large inlet fittings. That is the only way to take full advantage of the torque of the pump and that is the reason our 55 GPM pump does not perform well in their test. This is just one more variable. I hope you are getting a sense of how these systems "live or die" by the details and how these graphs must be interpreted taking these variables into account.
Meziere Enterprises has been focused on truthful advertising, even when our competitors have not, and we are the only electric pump company to offer a 2 year warranty on all of our water pump products. We do our very best to operate with integrity. This will be our only post. If you have questions about your vehicle please feel free to call our tech line.
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  #40  
Old 06-12-2013
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"This will be our only post. If you have questions about your vehicle please feel free to call our tech line."

I'm not a big fan of joining a discussion, making a statement and then bailing out. Not very professional in my opinion. Are you affraid of a an open and hopfeully constructive discussion?

I'm also not a big fan of any pump manufacturer not providing clear information on their pumps capabilities when confronted with restrictions or backpressure. Seriously, show me ONE engine that offers ZERO restriciton on the cooling system let alone an intercooler system. IT DOESNT EXIST so why be decietful. Maybe it's because it cost time and money to do comprehensive pump flow testing? Does anyone use any automotive pump from any manufacturer to pump water into the open air?

I will say this. I have yet to see anyone, including myself, the OP, 281 or LFE, complete a thorough test of various pumps on a COMPLETE system documenting both GPM, PSI, voltage and amps consumption, IAT in various driving and throttle conditions.

My opinion, to put this debate to bed this is what's needed. However, there will never be an absolute. Every system is different but atleast this would provide a little more clarity.

And you pump manufacturers, ALL OF YOU, need to be a little more honest than "my pump flows XX gpm with no back pressure or restrictions" Really? DUH!

Show me what it flows with 5psi or 10psi back pressure or 1' head pressure. Oh, never mind you cant. Can you?
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  #41  
Old 06-12-2013
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I can see both points here, the fact of the matter is the zero pressure is the industry standard that all pumps use right or wrong that is how it is and it does give you a point of reference. Realize that cooling systems with many restrictions and narrow cooling channels are going to tax the flow rate more than just open piping. The testing that has been done simply shows what pump style is best suited for a particular set up. This development is really no different than what has been done with supercharger systems. We all expect that a particular super charger will produce a certain amount of boost and HP increases but we have learned that the intake and exhaust systems can play a huge role in how efficient our supercharger can be. The water pump in your IC is no different it will do its job better or worse depending on how you design its input and output systems. Those systems need to take into account the qualities of the pump being used to move fluid through them. I love what has been done here! The next step for me would be to see how increaseing hose sizes and inlet/outlet sizes would influence the IATs in these systems.
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendog View Post
The next step for me would be to see how increaseing hose sizes and inlet/outlet sizes would influence the IATs in these systems.
This is biggest problem. Doesn't matter how much flow or gpm's you get from a pump, if the "holes" (hoses lol) are too small than you will always get the same end result.

There is a huge thread on the s197forum.com (10+ pages) pertaining to all of this. I'll see if I can track it down.
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxBoostinxX View Post
This is biggest problem. Doesn't matter how much flow or gpm's you get from a pump, if the "holes" (hoses lol) are too small than you will always get the same end result.

There is a huge thread on the s197forum.com (10+ pages) pertaining to all of this. I'll see if I can track it down.
The hoses and inlet outlet adapters wont make a difference, In the end you will be limited by the actual sizes of the inlet/outlet of the S/C intercooler, and also the in/out of your reservoir. Having a 1" diameter hose go into a 3/4" inlet/outlet on the S/C or the reservoir will still hold up the liquid moving through.

What Mezeire is saying kind of sounds like BS.. I mean it's not like they mentioned that to vendors before they were selling these pumps stating that they increase flow and reduce temps on intercooled systems. Now they are saying well if you have an intercooler or any resistance in your motor for the water flow the pump is no better than an OEM one for more money. If a pump like the Jabsco really flows twice as much water under resistance and costs less than it just means that the build quality and engineering on the Mezeire was built for profit more than it was built to do what it claims, thank you Mezeire for clearing that one up, this pump would be last Mezeire product I will ever buy.
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2013
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Bottom line then, it seems Wyatt's solution (Jabsco pump - http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/file...43000_0820.pdf - with 3/4 inch barbed fitting, and larger reservoir and H/E) is best for our application. I say that because this combination seems to solve the current reality. With the entire Saleen S/C system restricted by 3/4 inch hose the only alternative is to reliably push the most fluid thru the system faster and at the lowest cost. The Jabsco pump is very price competitive given its performance characteristics although it does require about 8 amps and is non-self priming (which I do not see as show stoppers); and the larger reservoir and H/E speak for themselves.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2013
jaja6009 jaja6009 is offline
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I added a Meziere 20GPM to my car along with a Shleby Heat exchanger and I used the 281 Moto Coolant tank (Made for radiator, but I added new fitting on the bottom and side so I can use it for the intercooler system.)
When done my IATs were very good. 10-15 degrees over ambient. But after driving for a couple months I saw my IATs start to get higher and higher. I looked and saw the flow into my reservoir had went from a nice flow to almost nothing. Then the flow stopped. I thought that I had lost prime to the pump. I tried to reprime it by using the bleed screw on the pump. I also did the Saleen install instructions thing of taking off the return to reservoir line, capping off the reservoir and having the line empty into a bucket. I then used a radiator pressure tester to add 5-10 PSI (The pressure listed on the cap) to force the fluid through the sytem and remove all air.

Well the tank from 281 split at the top at a weld. And I cannot get the flow to return to what it was. Im not sure if the Meziere pump has failed. Its running but there is not really a lot of flow.

First off the 281 tank is junk. Since it was made for the radiator system which uses a 16 PSI cap and the thing failed at a max of 10 PSI Im really disappointed in the quality of the tank. While it looks nice the welds are thin (obviously too thin).
Second before I can say the Meziere pump has failed I need to check some more things.

I pressure tested the inter cooler system and there are no leaks. I am pretty sure there is no blockage anywhere in the sytem but am still running water through things to rule it out.

Im having some problems with my brand new system.

If the pump had indeed died I am going to the Stewart EMP pump (That I wanted to use in the beginning but was talked out of).

The couple weeks the system worked it was great. But now Im pretty frustrated.
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2013
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Jaja6009,

If you have a problem with your tank even if it was a year ago, you should have called us, we'll take care of you. Im not sure how your tank cracked at a weld, but it can certainly be fixed. The company that makes our tanks for us uses 15 gauge (.057) 5052 Aluminum and they are laser cut and fully tig welded. It should have never broke, but it is possible. I'm sorry that it broke, but we would be more than happy to fix it, or send you a new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaja6009 View Post
I added a Meziere 20GPM to my car along with a Shleby Heat exchanger and I used the 281 Moto Coolant tank (Made for radiator, but I added new fitting on the bottom and side so I can use it for the intercooler system.)
When done my IATs were very good. 10-15 degrees over ambient. But after driving for a couple months I saw my IATs start to get higher and higher. I looked and saw the flow into my reservoir had went from a nice flow to almost nothing. Then the flow stopped. I thought that I had lost prime to the pump. I tried to reprime it by using the bleed screw on the pump. I also did the Saleen install instructions thing of taking off the return to reservoir line, capping off the reservoir and having the line empty into a bucket. I then used a radiator pressure tester to add 5-10 PSI (The pressure listed on the cap) to force the fluid through the sytem and remove all air.

Well the tank from 281 split at the top at a weld. And I cannot get the flow to return to what it was. Im not sure if the Meziere pump has failed. Its running but there is not really a lot of flow.

First off the 281 tank is junk. Since it was made for the radiator system which uses a 16 PSI cap and the thing failed at a max of 10 PSI Im really disappointed in the quality of the tank. While it looks nice the welds are thin (obviously too thin).
Second before I can say the Meziere pump has failed I need to check some more things.

I pressure tested the inter cooler system and there are no leaks. I am pretty sure there is no blockage anywhere in the sytem but am still running water through things to rule it out.

Im having some problems with my brand new system.

If the pump had indeed died I am going to the Stewart EMP pump (That I wanted to use in the beginning but was talked out of).

The couple weeks the system worked it was great. But now Im pretty frustrated.
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  #47  
Old 06-13-2013
jaja6009 jaja6009 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ 281m View Post
Jaja6009,

If you have a problem with your tank even if it was a year ago, you should have called us, we'll take care of you. Im not sure how your tank cracked at a weld, but it can certainly be fixed. The company that makes our tanks for us uses 15 gauge (.057) 5052 Aluminum and they are laser cut and fully tig welded. It should have never broke, but it is possible. I'm sorry that it broke, but we would be more than happy to fix it, or send you a new one.
I know it can be fixed, and Im kinda upset you are questioning me with "but it's possible". Its not just possible. It happened. I don't mean to bash your shop because I don't think I am. I am stating what happened. I added some pressure to force the system to move fluid and force out air and it cracked. I don't want to get it fixed as this tank has been nothing but trouble. I ordered it on Feb 20 last year and received it in July(Website says 6-8 weeks, and I have the emails with dates to backup timeline). It said it used the stock cap but it didn't. It said it was bolt on into the radiator system and it was not. It said it came with fittings, it did not come with the correct ones.That's why I used it for the intercooler. There is a guy on s197 forum with a Parnelli Jones Supershaker. He ordered one around the same time he will back up what I said about the tank taking too long and not being a true Bolton.

I am just redoing the whole system again.

New system is Shelby heat exchanger (Which you said on the phone have a tendency to leak, but I have never heard of one leaking. And Van from Revan racing would take offense to one of his vendors bashing his product without proof. It seemed like you were pushing the AFCO dual fan for whatever reason).
I just ordered a Stewart EMP pump from Lingenfelter.
And I think Im going with a Lightning plastic reservoir.

281 don't take this as me attacking you but everything above is not embellishment, it is just stated facts. Another fact positive to you is you rebuilt my blower in January and did an excellent job. I thanked you in a post and on other forums told others who needed a rebuild about the good service. Your oil dipstick for the blower was another great mod, making it easy for me to check the fluid level. You fixed the stripped thread in my blower and did a good job as far as I can tell. But this tank was a nightmare from day one.
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  #48  
Old 06-13-2013
Werecow Werecow is offline
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A lot of good information here, but it sounds as if Meziere is stating that their pump wasn't intended for this type of configuration, so why complain if it doesn't work as it was never intended to. Just don't buy it... Use the right tool for the job. I find that all the studies done here are very informative and states the facts as is. Great job! I have no idea what pump is in my new car, I'll have to look now as this has got me curious.
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Old 06-13-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werecow View Post
A lot of good information here, but it sounds as if Meziere is stating that their pump wasn't intended for this type of configuration, so why complain if it doesn't work as it was never intended to. Just don't buy it... Use the right tool for the job. I find that all the studies done here are very informative and states the facts as is. Great job! I have no idea what pump is in my new car, I'll have to look now as this has got me curious.
Ehh No. It has been pushed as an Intercooler pump, now that the graphs are out the truth comes out.. That's a wonderful way to do business, lets just stay quiet until people find out the pump is no better flowing than OEM but costs like 3x more once you get it installed.
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2006 Saleen Extreme #139 Tungsten Metallic: Saleen Forged Internals, Ported Heads, Ported S/C Lid, FR Twin 62mm TB, AFCO Pro H/E, JPC I/C Tank, Meziere I/C 20gpm Pump, American Racing Headers/ORX, JLT S3 Intake, Comp Cams 127550's/Beehives/Phaser Limiters, McLeod RXT Twin Disk, Metco LCA's, GT500 Pumps, Innovators 10% Pulley, Prothane Bullet Motor Mounts, ARP Head Studs, MoSaleen System, HT0 Plugs, 60LB Injectors, Saleen Watts Link, Custom Exhaust... 573whp 521wtq = A real 650hp Saleen ;-)
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Old 06-13-2013
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I had that same tank that I got from a guy that had never installed it. Within a week of me putting it in it cracked in the same spot.
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