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View Full Version : Blown head gasket repair? - 1997 S351


Kenny
04-30-2010, 08:27 PM
Guys:
I have a 1997 S351 with around 26K that blew a right side head gasket. My desire is to replace the head bolts with studs if there is enough room to install them into the block w/o removing the engine. Has anyone done this? What head gasket do you guys recommend? I believe it has a set of Trick Flow twisted wedge aluminum heads on top of the 351 Lightning 8.5 to 1 shortblock....Vortech Supercharger (stock pulley) is putting out 6 to 8 lbs. of boost.

Dave
05-01-2010, 10:58 AM
What head gasket do you guys recommend? I believe it has a set of Trick Flow twisted wedge aluminum heads...

You are correct.

Forum member S351r (Scott) should be able to answer most all your 351 questions.

Feel free to speak with Joe @ Chicane Sport Tuning as well.
http://www.chicanesport.com/

Also, shoot a note to forum user TPSMak (Mike) of TPS Motorsports fame.
http://www.TPSMotorsports.com/

jurob
05-02-2010, 02:29 AM
The cheapest ots felpro you can get at the parts store is perfectly fine.

Install heads on dowels and do the studs with the heads in place. Studs have Allen keyhole for that reason.

If your blowing hg with such a simple combo you need to check your tune or driving habits (wot at low rpm or)

S351r
05-02-2010, 02:06 PM
For the head gaskets go to the local Ford dealer and order the stock E5ZZ gaskets. 85-95 Mustang OEM ones. They will take alot. I've sent 32 lbs through my car using them without issues. They are whats called an expanded graphite gasket. They seal better than a stock fel pro. You can go with the upgraded fel pro (can't remember the part number) that will run you twice the cost of the Ford gaskets and really aren't any better. Also, when taking you motor apart make sure the heads aren't cut for receiver groves for o-ring type gaskets. If they are you will have to run $130 head gaskets from Fel pro. When you do take the heads off check to make sure it didn't damage the piston. They have a bad habit of lifting the top ring or cracking the piston near the valve relief. Once you put it back together I would start troubleshooting your fuel system for issues. One thing to think about is that its better to blow the head gasket than to take out a piston. I would also have the tune checked if you just bought the car. You can swap in head studs but, even if your is healthy, its not worth it. The area near the brake booster will give you issues. Just pick up a good set of ARP head bolts. I only run studs on cars that are only going to see track time. It is more convenient when racing and you save money not having to buy head bolts every other week.

Kenny
05-02-2010, 09:47 PM
Thanks for all of the replies. I will keep everyone posted when I get everything torn down. I was driving the car back into the driveway when it blew. There was water dripping out of the right side cat and muffler. It was also leaking under the front of the right side cylinder head and block area. Number 1 plug was contaminated, rest are fine.
No water and oil mix and the engine never got up to temp before I shut it down.

Kenny
05-05-2010, 08:33 AM
Guys...another question. If I trash the air injection hardware to the rear of the heads and exhaust system, will I have a check engine light on?

S351r
05-05-2010, 12:45 PM
Yes. You will get a check engine light. Sometimes it will cause the computer to switch to a safe tune. I can't remember if it does this on these specific cars or not.

Kenny
05-09-2010, 12:29 AM
Pulled off the heads today. It looks like water entered #1 cylinder from a leak at the water port between the head and intake. All four corners of the intake gaskets that seal off the water jackets were rotted away. It looks like water was sucked into the #1 intake port and turned into steam. The head gaskets looked OK to me. The Trick Flow heads are machined for o rings. Saleen originally installed ARP head bolts....can they be re-used? Anyone know what the torque specs are for the 351 with aluminum heads?

S351r
05-10-2010, 12:17 PM
I believe you can re-use them once. Contact TFS for the torque specs.

G8rDuc
07-13-2010, 10:14 PM
Wow, some bad info here. Hope the OP came out ok. Here's some corrections:

1) Yes, you can install studs without removing the motor. I recommend them over bolts.
2) I would NOT reuse the head bolts, regardless. They are cheap insurance. Replace them.
3) Torque in 3 equal steps. 25#...50#...and end at 75# using ARP thread sealer.
4) You MAY get a check engine light if you block the air passage holes. Just reprogram it.

S351r
07-14-2010, 12:06 AM
Head stud on a 351w in these cars is a PITA! On the 96 I have I had to remove the motor mounts and sit it down on the K member. Do not get the studs with the 12 point bolts. You will get the check engine light on a 97-up car.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 12:08 AM
Head stud on a 351w in these cars is a PITA! On the 96 I have I had to remove the motor mounts and sit it down on the K member. Do not get the studs with the 12 point bolts. You will get the check engine light on a 97-up car.


NEVER have had to remove the mounts. EVER. Done heads on atleast a half dozen 351 cars.

Regardless on 97 up cars, if you're running a blower, you need a custom tune and the light can be shut off. Saleen's tunes were pathetic.

99S351
07-14-2010, 01:22 AM
Im curious about the stock tune on my car. The insides of the ex pipes are coated in black soot so its prolly on the rich side. I know I cant wait til fall gets here and Im gonna take it to a shop and check the tune and make some adjustments on it. My buddy who's a ford master tech, talked to someone high up at ford that knew all about the Saleens and he said to keep an eye on the timing in these cars. This guy said that had a lot to do with early engine failures. I wish there was more tech info out there for these cars like what parts are in them, specs, etc. I have the owners manual for my car and it really doesnt tell that much in it. Doesnt even tell you what oil filter to use. Its all worth it though to have a S351 in your garage!!

S351r
07-14-2010, 03:06 AM
The only one that is a PITA is the driver side near the brake booster. The lower stud is the issue. I remove the mounts because it makes it easier. I've done the replacements also and after its all said and done I swapped back to ARP head bolts. No need for studs on a streetcar.
The tune on these cars is not the greatest. The early cars were horrible. They also had issues was fuel and timing. The 97-up cars were better. I only have one supercharged 351 car that still has the stock tune in it.
In the Arkansas area I don't know anyone I would trust to tune the car. You can drive to Texas to Murrilio Motorsports. They do good work.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 07:29 AM
The stock tunes weren't too bad in the early years. That's when the cars ran the strongest. But they had it too close to optimum, hence the number of warranty repairs. In 97, they added the fuel rail setups and fattened the tune. They ran like pigs and the performance numbers showed it.

Depending on if you've changed anything or not, find a reputable SCT tuning shop and they'll program one for you and send you the chip or handheld. It's not black magic and the S351 is a common setup now a days, so nothing special has to be programmed.

What did you want to know about the motors?


Im curious about the stock tune on my car. The insides of the ex pipes are coated in black soot so its prolly on the rich side. I know I cant wait til fall gets here and Im gonna take it to a shop and check the tune and make some adjustments on it. My buddy who's a ford master tech, talked to someone high up at ford that knew all about the Saleens and he said to keep an eye on the timing in these cars. This guy said that had a lot to do with early engine failures. I wish there was more tech info out there for these cars like what parts are in them, specs, etc. I have the owners manual for my car and it really doesnt tell that much in it. Doesnt even tell you what oil filter to use. Its all worth it though to have a S351 in your garage!!

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 07:31 AM
The only one that is a PITA is the driver side near the brake booster. The lower stud is the issue. I remove the mounts because it makes it easier. I've done the replacements also and after its all said and done I swapped back to ARP head bolts. No need for studs on a streetcar.
The tune on these cars is not the greatest. The early cars were horrible. They also had issues was fuel and timing. The 97-up cars were better. I only have one supercharged 351 car that still has the stock tune in it.
In the Arkansas area I don't know anyone I would trust to tune the car. You can drive to Texas to Murrilio Motorsports. They do good work.

Have never had an issue with #8 and putting the lower stud in. Just leave that one out, put the head on, then put the stud in. And again, I disagree. If you have a blower, use studs. It's simple insurance. If you're running the stock pulley on that B-trim blower from the 90's, then you're safe, otherwise, it's ridiculous not to just put studs on the motor.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:02 AM
I have not had any issues running bolts. I have 2 S-351's with s-trims and one with a T-trim. All have ARP head bolts. My drag radial car, I have head studs in it. Its a different animal though. No brake booster and there aren't accessories and all the other junk to get in the way. Haven't blown a head gasket in 7 years. Had one issue 5 years ago with a piston. Lifted a ring on #4. Had issues at the time with a fuel pump. Replaced the pistons and both pumps. The early cars needed a better fuel system. The later cars had a little better system along with some better engine internals. Mid 96 they started using forged pistons. 99 they went with a H-beam rod. It's still a good idea to have a good tune. I have one car that when bone stock layed down 496 rwhp. No mods at all.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:05 AM
That's sorta like me saying I've had a house in Florida for 20 years and never had a hurricane issue, I don't need insurance.

Agreed, the latter cars had nice fuel systems, just horrible conservative tuning. The earlier cars were actually fine if the tune had been richened up a little.

I have not had any issues running bolts. I have 3 cars with s-trims and one with a T-trim. Haven't blown a head gasket in 7 years. My drag radial car, I have head studs in it. Its a different animal though. No brake booster and there aren't accessories and all the other junk to get in the way. Had one issue 5 years ago with a piston. Lifted a ring on #4. Had issues at the time with a fuel pump. Replaced the pistons and both pumps. The early cars needed a better fuel system. The later cars had a little better system along with some better engine internals. Mid 96 they started using forged pistons. 99 they went with a H-beam rod. It's still a good idea to have a good tune. I have one car that when bone stock layed down 496 rwhp. No mods at all.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:16 AM
Depends on where you live in Florida? If you live near the GA state line and you have Hurricane insurance then, your probably wasting money. If you live near near the coast its a wise investment.
The only advantage I have seen with studs is they are re-usable. Thats the only reason I have them in the big motor.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:24 AM
If you run over 8 pounds of boost, the clamping force of studs is much more reliable over head bolts. That's why people use them. If you run your car just as it came, then not a big deal. But why in the world would you not use them if the heads are off the car?

And NO, it does not depend on where you live in Florida. 4 hurricanes crossed over north central Florida in the summer of 2004. And my house is in SW Florida, off of the gulf. We've had one season of hurricanes in my 35 years here...and it was hell.

Depends on where you live in Florida? If you live near the GA state line and you have Hurricane insurance then, your probably wasting money. If you live near near the coast its a wise investment.
The only advantage I have seen with studs is they are re-usable. Thats the only reason I have them in the big motor.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:37 AM
Its not something the average guys who drives the car normal will need. If you plan on racing the car then yes, it becomes a good idea. The car with the T-trim see's 22lbs alot and I have never had issues. Its got a relatively safe tune.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:39 AM
I agree with you on the average guy, but don't see how you would just pop in bolts if you had the heads already off. Insurance is insurance and why not have it for peace of mind. I've seen 8lbs cars still lift a gasket. If you get a bad tank of gas and don't realize it quick enough, that stud could make a difference. Pretty much a no brainer to me.

Its not something the average guys who drives the car normal will need. If you plan on racing the car then yes, it becomes a good idea. The car with the T-trim see's 22lbs alot and I have never had issues. Its got a relatively safe tune.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:48 AM
True, but on the flip side, if it doesn't take out the gasket, it could get the piston. Had that happen early on. Two different schools of thought.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:50 AM
Where are you located in Florida? Did you ever tune a 99 351 that was red with gold graphics?

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:50 AM
True, but on the flip side, if it doesn't take out the gasket, it could get the piston. Had that happen early on. Two different schools of thought.

Two different schools of thought based on two different sets of experience. I've always had the gasket as the fail safe. Usually, if the piston goes, it would've gone regardless of stud versus bolt. If it's the hyperpathetic piston, they'll go no matter what if the detonation is bad enough.

Onto a different topic: How have the 6-speeds done in your experience?

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:52 AM
Where are you located in Florida? Did you ever tune a 99 351 that was red with gold graphics?

Lived in Cape Coral/Fort Myers from 1982 through 1991, then again from 2000-2006. Inbetween those times and currently, I reside in the Gainesville area.

Can't say I've seen the 99 you described. Where was it located? Honestly don't see a lot of S351's anymore. Shame. Probably the only Saleen I ever liked. Typical quality issues drove me nuts in regards to Saleens.

S351r
07-14-2010, 10:57 AM
We've meet. When I lived in Ft Walton I came down and bought a 6 speed from you. One of my cars came from a guy in the south Florida area. I had you confused with someone else that had a shop in Florida.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Holy smokes, you only lived a short ways away at that time. Now in Kansas?

Hell, I'll stop arguing with you, now that I know who you are, I don't want you kicking my *** ;)

How ya doin? Seems you've built up quite the collection.

S351r
07-14-2010, 11:06 AM
I'm actually in Afghanistan right now. Military moved me to Kansas. In a few months I am probably going back to being a civilian after 14 years. I've been working on the collection for a long time. I'm loking at opening a shop in the midwest and one in Georgia if I decide to leave active duty. Looking at some options. Miss Ft Walton but, can't afford the hurricane insurance. It was going to be almost as much as the house note.

G8rDuc
07-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Well, let me first state thanks for serving. Definitely be careful over there.

So you're thinking speed shops? Sounds like a plan. Tough economy right now to do it, but if you have the clients, you should do pretty good. Would there be a specialty to it?

I understand what you mean about the house insurance. Not sure how bad Fort Walton has it with the oil spill right now.

Keep me posted on your speed shop quest. I stopped tinkering with mustangs out of boredom back when you saw me...into tracking motorcycles now :)

I'm actually in Afghanistan right now. Military moved me to Kansas. In a few months I am probably going back to being a civilian after 14 years. I've been working on the collection for a long time. I'm loking at opening a shop in the midwest and one in Georgia if I decide to leave active duty. Looking at some options. Miss Ft Walton but, can't afford the hurricane insurance. It was going to be almost as much as the house note.

S351r
07-14-2010, 11:35 AM
Not going to do a speed shop. Looking at something similar to what MPS was years ago. three locations I am considering are Dallas, Oklahoma City, and Kansas City. The specialty section would be Saleen parts. Th edaily stuff would be some collision repair, custom work, resto mods, and lots of parts. The Georgia location would be more of a restoration type facility and used parts with some performance work.

99S351
07-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Id take the car to Dynospeed Racing in Memphis. They're a SCT tuning shop and did a great job on my 04 Cobra.

Kenny
07-14-2010, 10:58 PM
Some results after everything is back together....
Drove the car for 50 miles before the CEL came on. I haven't checked the code....Tune seemed unchanged even with the light on. My one dyno trip a couple years ago showed 456 HP/475 ft lbs at Dallas Mustang's Dynojet. My only mod other than adding a T Rex inline pump was a set of BBK hi flow cats. A/F ratio went below 10:1 around 4500 and up to the 5300 shutoff, black smoke coming out quite heavily. They told me they could get 500rwp with a decent tune. I couldn't afford it at the time and am still running the stock 1997 Saleen tune. Boost is in the 6 to 7 psi range with stock pulley. Any preferred tuners in the DFW area? I have a friend who works at Quantum and have heard good things about Gearheads in Arlington.....

S351r
07-15-2010, 01:36 AM
You'll have to have someone with a scanner reset the computer. Otherwise the CEL will come back on.

G8rDuc
07-16-2010, 07:36 AM
Don't know the Texas area but I would check on the Corral.net or SVTPerformance.com sites to get some feedback on tuners.

Some results after everything is back together....
Drove the car for 50 miles before the CEL came on. I haven't checked the code....Tune seemed unchanged even with the light on. My one dyno trip a couple years ago showed 456 HP/475 ft lbs at Dallas Mustang's Dynojet. My only mod other than adding a T Rex inline pump was a set of BBK hi flow cats. A/F ratio went below 10:1 around 4500 and up to the 5300 shutoff, black smoke coming out quite heavily. They told me they could get 500rwp with a decent tune. I couldn't afford it at the time and am still running the stock 1997 Saleen tune. Boost is in the 6 to 7 psi range with stock pulley. Any preferred tuners in the DFW area? I have a friend who works at Quantum and have heard good things about Gearheads in Arlington.....

maryflint
10-14-2010, 12:34 AM
well, my head gasket set (http://www.racepages.com/parts/head_gasket_set.html) is felpro. I bought it online, and had it delivered. The quality is great and it is readily available compatible to my car.