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-   -   Q: Series VI Rear Needle Bearing Removal? (https://saleenforums.soec.org/showthread.php?t=22340)

Saleen206 03-20-2019 04:11 PM

Q: Series VI Rear Needle Bearing Removal?
 
Hey Fellow Saleen Owners! Recently Purchased a rebuild kit for my Series 6 Supercharger and am in the process of removing the rear needle bearings. It looks like they might be closed Back factory bearings? I removed the 2 Plugs behind the bearings in the housing but im afraid to press to0 hard on the back of the bearings if its not part of it. The replacement bearings in the picture look like open back bearings. Tried using a Blind Hole slide hammer puller but no luck. Do these just press out from the back? Thank you for any help!

Aussie-Parnelli 03-24-2019 04:43 AM

1 Attachment(s)
No you can't knock it out from rear.
Took me awhile to work it out.
Firstly you have to remove the needles out of the bearing to allow the puller to grip the shell
I ended up making this tool which simplified the process. This way you do not damage anything. The alloy plate is 10mm thick
I also made a special tool to press the new bearing in.
Be aware the grease used in this bearing is harmful use caution and gloves when replacing them

Saleen206 03-24-2019 01:25 PM

Thank you for the reply I appreciate the info and the help! Nobody ive called will help with anything unless I have them do the whole supercharger. I’m stuck with the rebuild kit so I have no choice. I have pretty much that same collet puller but not the long screw shaft just a slide hammmer. I guess I’ll try to make something like that thank you! Looked like I could press them out after popping out those plugs. Glad I didn’t. Did you also replace your rotor pack bearings? Thanks again for your time it’s greatly appreciated!

Aussie-Parnelli 03-25-2019 07:25 PM

4 Attachment(s)
I have wanted to pull this to pieces for sometime, you gave me the inspiration.
Not easy especially not damaging rotor pack or gears....but possible with right equipment.
First remove the 3 pin coupling undoing the cap screws
Next the 12 point nuts holding the gears to rotors these are loctited on so a little heat may be needed. I managed to get one with no heat.
Thankfully I have a hydraulic 2 leg puller which I was able to get large gear off rotor. Then pushed the rotor out.
That then enabled me to get the other gear off rotor using hydraulic press. Then pushed that rotor out of housing.
I marked the housing with a 3 making sure the 3 vane rotor went back into the correct position.

Tony

lenko 03-26-2019 10:43 AM

Don't use a slide hammer, you may crack or break the thin supports. This is aluminum and breaks easily. I would just clean those bearings and repack them with proper grease. They are not easy to R&R and you likely have to devise some special tools to safely remove and then press them back in. Have a look here: https://saleenforums.soec.org/showth...458#post146458

Saleen206 03-27-2019 02:10 AM

Tony thank you so much!! Wow you are the man for posting these pics! Probably the best shots of these I have seen on the net! Absolutely helps being able to see how it all is pieced together. I have all the press equipment and pullers and access to snap on for any special tools at work. I successfully rebuilt the front snout today! My next question is what is your plan to realign the gears and rotors? I was figuring marking the gears together and the rotors to the back of the housing. Did you mark them? Also noticed there is Allen holes in the rear of the rotors, maybe for a special tool to keep them aligned? Thank you again, I believe having this info out there for some of us able to wrench on our own cars if great and impossible to find. Thanks for sharing buddy! Here is a few pics of the Rotor Pack Bearing Part Numbers. I got them from John Bond Performance at a decent price! https://jonbondperformance.com/index...roducts_id=171

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psrs6elesu.jpg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psfwfhdopo.jpg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psrzlswkau.jpg

Saleen206 03-27-2019 02:14 AM

Lenko, thank you for the comment and advice! Unfortunately I already tried to remove one so I have to replace them now. My car has 105k so Its probably not a bad Idea to change them anyway. I think I know how to get them out now I just need to fab up the puller. Thanks for helping!

lenko 03-27-2019 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saleen206 (Post 147907)
Lenko, thank you for the comment and advice! Unfortunately I already tried to remove one so I have to replace them now. My car has 105k so Its probably not a bad Idea to change them anyway. I think I know how to get them out now I just need to fab up the puller. Thanks for helping!

I bought a two armed puller and had to grind some of the claws thinner to get it behind the bearing cage to press them in. It's important to get offsetting pressure so you don't put any stress on the cage or the tiny arms so they don't crack or break. "Where there's a will there's a way." Good luck.

lenko 03-27-2019 09:52 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's what I used to press the bearings in. You can see where I ground the arms off so they would go behind the bearing cage to enable pressing the bearings in. You can use a suitable socket on the bearing to push it in and countersink it a bit. I think it calls for .07 thou, but that's hard to get perfect. Oh! and I cut the ends of the H-bar at the top so it will go in the case screw cavities without hitting the walls.
IMG_20190327_074133.jpg

Aussie-Parnelli 03-27-2019 05:47 PM

Hey Lenko
I think you were looking for a 6.5 case, I think I was the one who outbid you last year.
There was a problem with that case the lower needle bearing holes were not finished actually 1mm too small. I have it an engineering shop to rectify.
Not sure how many 6.5 cases were ever made I expect not many. I have a 6.5 lid on my race car and Extreme. Also the 6.5 water crossover with thermostat housing on all 4 of my supercharged Saleens. It is a shame Saleen did keep producing these parts.

lenko 03-27-2019 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie-Parnelli (Post 147911)
Hey Lenko
I think you were looking for a 6.5 case, I think I was the one who outbid you last year.
There was a problem with that case the lower needle bearing holes were not finished actually 1mm too small. I have it an engineering shop to rectify.
Not sure how many 6.5 cases were ever made I expect not many. I have a 6.5 lid on my race car and Extreme. Also the 6.5 water crossover with thermostat housing on all 4 of my supercharged Saleens. It is a shame Saleen did keep producing these parts.

Makes me feel better that I did not win that bid. In any event I was able to assure myself that mine would not cause me problems as I installed the two support bolts and it been running great ever since. I am now entirely confident in my unit and stopped looking for a case last year after I made the correction. I do however like the idea of the 6.5 case as in some ways it would be easier to handle and work on.

Just last week, the short rubber hose to the crossover started to leak so off came the charger and the hose replaced. I can probably take the S/C off in my sleep. So easy to work on.

cc93cruiser 03-27-2019 08:05 PM

very informative post....

Saleen206 03-30-2019 03:24 PM

Ok here’s an update. I want to try and get as much info out as I can for future use for anyone and I hope it helps. I know many think I’m probably an idiot for trying to do any of this but regardless if I screw it up at least I learned something and we get some good info from it. I would like to learn so I can rely on myself to repair it in the future :)

So, I successfully installed the rear needle bearings using advice from the previous posts thank you! I removed them with a blind hole expanding collet puller piece attached to a threaded rod cut to fit the length of the case I got at Home Depot. Put the rod through a brace from another puller I had and treaded a nut and washer onto it. They came out no problem. Note that I measured the bearings were originally installed about 1mm below the top of the bore. They can go deeper. I re installed them at that depth. I used a hydraulic press and some sockets/extensions and lightly lubed the bearings.
Long story short, it was very easy and not at all as scary as it seems if you just go slow and are careful.

However now I do have a loud knocking noise from the blower and what feels like excessive lash or play back and forth if I spin the snout side to side. It clunks. I’m guessing it must be the rotor pack bearings. Everything else is new. I did install a new coupler supplied by Jon Bond Performance but it sounds more then that. Maybe I’ll try try the original.
Do these have any lash in the gears? And does anyone know the spec for the rotor clearance from rotor to front bearing plate?

I guess I’m going to have to try and do them. Gonna take it apart and re inspect it. Maybe post some videos to YouTube. Thank you for your help!

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...s4qao991j.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...sgj3xcqow.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...slvzqvrtu.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ssfpusyyk.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...s3r89dvcm.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...sq0jmzjgv.jpeg

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...swf0e1azq.jpeg

zeitmorder 03-30-2019 05:23 PM

Very Good information in this thread. :smile:

Saleen206 03-31-2019 01:06 AM

So I removed the supercharger today and inspected it for any new damage or signs of wear and could not find any! It still rattled/knocks/grinds every now and then. I posted some videos to YouTube if anybody has time to check them out and give me your opinion of the cause of the noise I would be very appreciative! I did replace the rear bearings and rebuilt the snout but not the rotor pack bearings. I do have them though. I mean that’s all that’s left to replace besides gears right? I measured .008 on the clearances from both front rotors to front bearing plate. Is this bad rotor pack bearings? Or excessive drive gear lash? Thank you!

https://youtu.be/x8JxV1wetto

https://youtu.be/8u6aX4D-W2Q

https://youtu.be/OsiA8Ic5U3E

https://youtu.be/1VPHNWtZ568

lenko 03-31-2019 08:15 PM

Some of that sound is what's called rotor clash. I have that too but I don't have that clacking and that other noise when you rotate your pulley by hand (mine is smooth) I don't recall the play in those gears, but when I rotated the screws everything seemed tight. Like rear end gears, I would think there has to be some play (backlash) but how much, don't know. Were you able to get that center bolt in the nose tight when you assembled it?

lenko 03-31-2019 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeitmorder (Post 147927)
Very Good information in this thread. :smile:


I think so too. The more information we share the better. Companies repairing superchargers are pretty tight lipped for their own reasons. We shouldn't have to send our chargers away for some repairs which aren't that complicated. Very costly and time consuming. By sharing we can avoid some pitfalls and save some $.

Aussie-Parnelli 03-31-2019 11:02 PM

Hi Mike

Looks like it is definitely your gear back lash.
Just took belt off my race car and there absolutely no back lash noticeable. Also checked those gears I pulled of rotors last week and the mesh is really tight.
I would say your problem started when the supercharger run out of oil and has worn the teeth of the gears. Also it would be a good time to replace those front rotor bearings as they are probably not in a good condition either as they are also lubricated from the oil.

Try Jon Bond maybe they can supply new gears.
Cheers mate, it is nothing you have done.
Also make sure you use the proper Anaerobic sealant when putting it back together

Tony

Saleen206 04-04-2019 01:38 PM

Ok, first I want to say thank you to the few who have taken the time to help me especially Aussie-Parnelli and Lenko! After careful inspection I also agree that it looks like I smoked the drive gears when the fluid went dry. Its still possible that the Rotor Pack gears are causing backlash but from what I can tell they do not have any play in them. I've called around and found that the only place that seems to have extra parts is Jon Bond. Of course I need to send the whole thing in to get new gears or whatever they deem it needs. I was told he bought all the stock in parts. Im sure they will put me through the ringer with everything.

Anyways since I have not found a good article on replacing the rotor bearings and I can't get replacement gears it looks like im sending it in when I have 4k for a rebuild. That's what PSE quoted me for worst case when I spoke to him. he also said he would send it back in pieces if I declined or I could just let him keep it... ha ha umm No. plus a $150 inspection fee and $250 each way for shipping.

Thanks again to all who helped me and I hope something was learned with the rear bearings here! Hopefully ill have it running again this year!

Aussie-Parnelli 04-04-2019 06:05 PM

Hi Mike
That is a bummer, I bought quite a bit of stuff when Saleen was auctioned off. A crowd in Tennessee ended up with most of it then put it up on Ebay. It was cheap compared to what Saleen was selling it previously but then I had to ship it to Australia which isn't cheap anymore, so that limited what I bought.
Just a thought why don't you go to a good engineering shop in your location and find out how much to manufacture the gears for you. With CNC machines it is a lot easier these days to reproduce parts.
I am seeing my engineer in a few days I will take my spare ones down as they are out and ask him to quote, to see if it is feasible may be another option.

Will let you know

Tony

Aussie-Parnelli 04-04-2019 07:16 PM

Hi Mike

Been thinking more about your situation. First of all your rotor pack will be fine as it can only be damaged by a foreign object "like mine" or the collapse of those front bearings and neither happened. So all you need are the new gears and they certainly ain't worth $4000
As I said in my earlier post check around with some gear manufacturers or good engineering shops.
Hopefully I will get back to you early next week

Tony

Saleen206 04-04-2019 08:27 PM

Thank you Tony! Definitely an option to consider. Yes my screws are fine and the bearings seem ok but maybe they did go bad when dry and it’s just not noticeable? Anyhow, I’d very much appreciate your help if you can get a quote on gears when you take your stuff in. I know it might be less than 4K to send it in but if I don’t have that and it is then they said they will send it back in pieces lol. Thanks again for your help, opinion and ideas! -Mike

Jason @ 281m 04-15-2019 09:50 PM

Guys, everything I'm about to say is whole hearted with the best of intentions to genuinely INFORM, not bash. I am a Saleen owner, heavily involved in the Saleen world and have been for 22 years.

In looking at your photo's I was cringing because everything your showing people was not an "ideal" way of doing things. Your tools were mostly all wrong. Its one thing to take the risk on and possibly damage your own supercharger which I know what you did wrong with yours, but its another to have people think this is something that can be done with basic tools.

The tooling we have built has been either CNC'd, laser cut, and then with precision built. This has costed us some number well over $10,000 to properly work on these superchargers. Showing people to use a blind bearing puller to remove the bearings is going to cost someone to destroy their supercharger. Pressing them in with a press without the right tooling also poses the same massive potential of breaking the bearing plate.

I certainly can appreciate doing things yourself and avoid giving a shop your money, but somethings should be left to a shop that has those tools thus saving a headache and lots more cost.

If you would like, I will be more than happy to discuss with you on the phone what I believe is wrong with your supercharger and help you get it back up and running. My advise would be to not run the supercharger anymore based upon what you've said.

Aussie-Parnelli 07-06-2019 06:39 PM

Hey Mike
How is the car running with the new gears, trust it is getting good use
Glad I could help

Tony

Jason @ 281m 07-08-2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saleen206 (Post 147945)
Ok, first I want to say thank you to the few who have taken the time to help me especially Aussie-Parnelli and Lenko! After careful inspection I also agree that it looks like I smoked the drive gears when the fluid went dry. Its still possible that the Rotor Pack gears are causing backlash but from what I can tell they do not have any play in them. I've called around and found that the only place that seems to have extra parts is Jon Bond. Of course I need to send the whole thing in to get new gears or whatever they deem it needs. I was told he bought all the stock in parts. Im sure they will put me through the ringer with everything.

Anyways since I have not found a good article on replacing the rotor bearings and I can't get replacement gears it looks like im sending it in when I have 4k for a rebuild. That's what PSE quoted me for worst case when I spoke to him. he also said he would send it back in pieces if I declined or I could just let him keep it... ha ha umm No. plus a $150 inspection fee and $250 each way for shipping.

Thanks again to all who helped me and I hope something was learned with the rear bearings here! Hopefully ill have it running again this year!

Hey Saleen206,

I somehow missed this post...I think you had been emailing me as well or that could have been another person dealing with Jon Bond.

But full disclosure, as I understood it direct from both sources PSE, and Jon Bond....Jon Bond bought all of PSE's inventory when they closed up shop sometime in the last year or two, not all the inventory. They may have reopened, I'm not sure as I don't concern myself with PSE, I only know this because he called me to buy his inventory, I told him no.

Since we specialize in the Saleen Superchargers we have plenty of parts and parts availability. We have the original Saleen designed and build computerized supercharger dyno, original or better parts and have the best warranty in the business, 4 years or 40,000 miles. Our success rate on doing top notch work exceeds even far past the original standards. This claim is based upon a 98% client satisfaction rate....yes its true you cannot make everyone happy or would want too...lol. We have invested well over $10,000 in specific tooling hand manufactured to produce a product that can warranty giving such a strong warranty.

Our clients who keep coming back again and again for great 1 on 1 personal service and top notch craftsmanship keep us going strong.

As most of you know since we provide a custom build crate that is CAD designed, laser cut open cell foam...shipping cost are at a minimum. Average cost is $135 each way with $5,000 insurance. $250 each way is a robbery.

If you need help, give us a call...we'll get your supercharger back on the road and under pressure! :cool::cool::cool:

Saleen206 08-27-2019 04:40 PM

So here is a long over due update..
I got the Supercharger back running perfectly a few months ago. I ended up replacing the rotor pack assembly (Thank you Tony) and rebuilding the snout and rear needle bearings with parts from Jon Bond Performance. The drive gears on the rotor pack assembly were smoked from fluid loss (failed sealant) in the snout and had excessive lash causing the rattling/clash noise from the blower. The gears should have virtually no lash back and forth. They are constant mesh.

Huuuge thank you to Tony (Aussie-Parnelli) for helping me and locating a rotor pack assembly for me. I cant say enough about what he did to help and it is why these forums are here. For info and help from fellow enthusiasts. We are all family and should help eachother!

Jason, I'm sorry if I offended in any way with my posts. I realize I dont have thousands invested in specialy tools and jigs etc but I do have very good mechanical experience as a technician and felt I could do the work myself if I could get the parts and info. In no way was I telling anyone to copy my methods or was saying I was an expert or anything like that. I was just documenting my experience so my fellow enthusiasts could have some info on these unicorn blowers. Right or wrong I assumed the risk and knew it was on me. I'm not telling anyone to do it how I did it. I appreciate you, your company and all your help and hope to stay on good terms with you as I was in the past.

Long story short I'm back and the car runs great!!

05119 10-20-2020 08:41 AM

Awesome
 
I'm glad to see posts like this with actual enthusiasts working on their cars. I am hoping to find the actual seal and bearing part numbers so a guy can buy them without the hyper inflated extra cost slapped on top. looks like a few basic fixtures can make a world of difference. nice to see guys involved in their cars like hot rodding has always been.
I would see no reason why all of the bearings wouldn't last 100k if the gear lube was kept clean and free of contaminants from gear failure. the rear needles should be pretty easy to clean out the old grease and pack them in place without removing them. they appear to be another component that should go a lot of miles if allowed not to run out of grease.

Jason @ 281m 10-20-2020 02:46 PM

Hey Kelly,

The bearings do last a 100k typically. The things that cause them to fail is excessive blow-by damaging the seals, and just simply age. The rubber in layman’s terms rots over time. As you mentioned as long as the grease stays in, your good to go. But if it don’t damage happens. We started seeing seal failure on those bearings around 10 years of age. That isn’t the rule just seemingly the more notable point of failure regardless of miles.

Jason @ 281m 10-20-2020 02:54 PM

Sorry I don’t remember seeing the notification you responded. We’re totally good! My point was this, not that anyone couldn’t be savvy enough to tear these simple machines down, but that if you make a wrong move, it damages the supercharger. I support guys working on their cars, anyone who has called me knows that, but I will also suggest when not too. Had you sent it to us, your drive wouldn’t have been damaged. Sometimes we know that damage is unrepairable because we have to tell the people, it’s never a fun day to tell someone their Supercharger is trash. This is why we acquire as many pets as possible so we limit the amount of Saleen’s we can’t help get back on the road, and make a living doing so. I think we care about this community more than most and our actions show that.

It’s been a year, I hope all is still well with you!! :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saleen206 (Post 148701)
So here is a long over due update..
I got the Supercharger back running perfectly a few months ago. I ended up replacing the rotor pack assembly (Thank you Tony) and rebuilding the snout and rear needle bearings with parts from Jon Bond Performance. The drive gears on the rotor pack assembly were smoked from fluid loss (failed sealant) in the snout and had excessive lash causing the rattling/clash noise from the blower. The gears should have virtually no lash back and forth. They are constant mesh.

Huuuge thank you to Tony (Aussie-Parnelli) for helping me and locating a rotor pack assembly for me. I cant say enough about what he did to help and it is why these forums are here. For info and help from fellow enthusiasts. We are all family and should help eachother!

Jason, I'm sorry if I offended in any way with my posts. I realize I dont have thousands invested in specialy tools and jigs etc but I do have very good mechanical experience as a technician and felt I could do the work myself if I could get the parts and info. In no way was I telling anyone to copy my methods or was saying I was an expert or anything like that. I was just documenting my experience so my fellow enthusiasts could have some info on these unicorn blowers. Right or wrong I assumed the risk and knew it was on me. I'm not telling anyone to do it how I did it. I appreciate you, your company and all your help and hope to stay on good terms with you as I was in the past.

Long story short I'm back and the car runs great!!


05119 11-09-2023 10:57 PM

If it were true you would discuss alternate procedures and offer parts availability verses"give me a call" private discussion. There are all kinds of suppliers of parts that support those who want to try working on their own property. You claim to support that but offer no public advice or parts for sale. only call me privately so y can ship it to me and I can charge you over 2 thousand dollars.

Jason @ 281m 11-09-2023 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05119 (Post 153152)
If it were true you would discuss alternate procedures and offer parts availability verses"give me a call" private discussion. There are all kinds of suppliers of parts that support those who want to try working on their own property. You claim to support that but offer no public advice or parts for sale. only call me privately so y can ship it to me and I can charge you over 2 thousand dollars.

If what were true? I’m sorry we are not a school and we don’t teach people how to work on their cars. We make a living with our skills and availabilities. If you don’t like how we do business by NOT conducting business in a forum setting, there are other options of companies to patronize. We like how we do business and have 16 years and thousands of customers that appreciate our one on one service. We are not for everyone and that is ok if you choose another shop.

You say we don’t contribute help to this community yet we have the 3rd most post of this forum…hmm. I think you want what we don’t offer and want to gripe about it.

I think your entire two post should kick rocks and move on. Go bully someone else.

Jason @ 281m 11-09-2023 11:45 PM

Correction, 2nd most post. 🤣

Jason @ 281m 12-03-2023 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05119 (Post 153152)
If it were true you would discuss alternate procedures and offer parts availability verses"give me a call" private discussion. There are all kinds of suppliers of parts that support those who want to try working on their own property. You claim to support that but offer no public advice or parts for sale. only call me privately so y can ship it to me and I can charge you over 2 thousand dollars.

Guess you were just a troll! Bye Felicia!


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