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-   -   Calibration Q: Saleen Instrument Cluster? (https://saleenforums.soec.org/showthread.php?t=7578)

apicia 05-07-2010 09:45 PM

Calibration Q: Saleen Instrument Cluster?
 
Ok, so Ford sent Saleen, Inc. many Mustangs each year, which Saleen, Inc. turned into Saleens? Saleen modified these Mustangs in many ways, more on some models than others (S281, SC, Extreme).

One of the modifications Saleen installed was a set of Saleen Gauges? On my 2000, there is a 200mph speedometer and a 7,000k RPM tachometer, along with white faces with Saleen logos.

A Mustang GT has a 150mph speedometer and an 8,000k tachometer when it arrives at Saleen, Inc.

Question: How did Saleen account for the change in range of the speedometer and tachometer? The GT speedometer maxed out at 150mph and the Saleen 200mph. The GT tachometer maxed out at 8,000rpm and the Saleen maxed out at 7,000rpm.

The fix for the difference cannot be done in the tune of the PCM. The micro controller in the cluster controls whether a needle will sweep 50% or 75%, and ultimately what value it points to.

Did they change the whole cluster, including a micro controller that was calibrated for the Saleen gauges? Did they just install Saleen gauges and flash the firmware of the existing cluster/micro controller? I don't know if the micro controller or cluster even has flash memory. Did they install some sort of in-harness module that altered the signal to the tachometer and speedometer?

Remember this is way back in 2000, but maybe all New Edge Saleens were done the same.

Dave 05-07-2010 10:02 PM

Forum user Greg Wackett researched Saleen gauges and manufacture info while working on his N20.

http://www.simcoltd.com/

apicia 05-07-2010 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave (Post 37369)
Forum user Greg Wackett researched Saleen gauges and manufacture info while working on his N20.

http://www.simcoltd.com/

Simco produced the module for the Saleen gauges to work with the stock cluster? Or, did Simco produce the entire cluster with gauges and module included?

apicia 05-10-2010 06:01 PM

Seems that Saleen had a tool to flash the cluster to accomidate the 200mph speedo and 7k tachometer. Simco only made the gauges and lights. They did not make anything actual micro controllers.

I need to track down the flash tool they used to calibrate the clusters after installing the new gauges (module). I also need the firmware.

apicia 05-10-2010 06:10 PM

UPDATE:

Talked to Saleen Tech. A senior technician at Ford gave me a number to call at Saleen Tech Assist. They were not very helpful. He coped a bit of an attitude actually, "is there anything else I can help you with..." He said they no longer support flashing 99-04 clusters with the correct firmware.

He said if Ford called them because a customer's Saleen cluster went bad (99-04). They would tell them to put in a GT cluster. They no longer support flashing clusters to work with Saleen gauges (99-04). I said, "what limited edition Saleen owner would want a GT cluster in their car?"

I tried to politely press him for a more detailed explanation. I told him members of the Saleen forum would want details of why they can't provide any support, directly or indirectly. I asked if the tool still existed. He claimed it was not functioning properly and they are not fixing it. I also asked if the firmware still existed. He did not know. I asked him if it was a legal issue that stopped them from flashing clusters on the pre-05 Saleens or giving any support. He said, "we just can't."

I guess if your cluster goes bad, you cannot get Saleen calibrated firmware for a new one. You are basically screwed. You need to use a GT cluster or find a Saleen cluster on eBay (good luck with that).

ctann 05-10-2010 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 37550)
I guess if your cluster goes bad, you cannot get Saleen calibrated firmware for a new one. You are basically screwed. You need to use a GT cluster or find a Saleen cluster on eBay (good luck with that).

Well, if there is enough of a demand, an enterprising enthusiast somewhere will come up with the tools to do it. I have no idea how the module is put together, but if there is a socketed eprom on the board, then it should be pretty easy enough to do. If it is a hard-wired eprom, things get a lot trickier. So do you actually have a bad cluster, or are you just digging into this for the information? It actually sounds like quite a fun little project! :->

Chris.

Jim D. 05-11-2010 01:11 PM

We've seen this challenge come up several times since the calibrator went on the fritz. As time passes, it will only become more of a problem.

apicia 05-11-2010 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim D. (Post 37604)
We've seen this challenge come up several times since the calibrator went on the fritz. As time passes, it will only become more of a problem.

Seriously? Send me the calibrator and the firmware and I will fix the thing. It does not take a rocket scientist if there are schematics. A freakin' TV repairman could fix that thing. There is a small market for cluster repair reflashes and more of a market for people wanting their clusters reflashed after installing overlays. I just need the replacement cluster to be flashed with the appropriate firmware so Ford can marry it to my PCM. I am certainly not using a GT cluster. The Simco gauges are nice looking, but on backorder. They can't get Ford to send them the materials they need to put them together.

I thought Ford had the ability to flash anything connected to the OBDII system. They should be able to flash the cluster if they had the firmware? I have to really look into that.

apicia 05-11-2010 06:31 PM

I just got PMed from the 4-post Dave Rivard with the ALL CAP virtual slap, telling me to GET MY FACTS STRAIGHT. I think he was referring to my call to Saleen Tech Assist, but I am not sure what he is exactly talking about. I also emailed Saleen and they responded by telling me they can't help me. Maybe he is talking about the email and not the phone call? Jeez, how bout some cyberbullying @ soec.org?

Anyone with a new edge Saleen (my sticker says $52,000) will want a replacement Saleen cluster when theirs goes bad. Am I asking too much? They told me to use a GT cluster and I am supposed to be happy with that?

ctann 05-11-2010 06:48 PM

As you will have noticed, there is a lot of sensitivity around here! :biggrin:

In about 2005, I needed a new Ford part for my 1998 Saleen. Man, the hoops I had to jump through just to get the part number out of Ford! It was a hard brake line, and with some perseverance I did manage to track down the part, but along the way I was made to feel like my 7 year old car should be ready for the scrap heap - it being *two* generations old at that time! This was all Ford by the way, nothing to do with the Saleen parts of the car...

So all I'm saying is that even the big boys are much more interested in selling new cars than supporting the "old" cars. Now Saleen and SMS are a slightly different story, as their future will absolutely depend on keeping existing customers happy. That being said, the support and maintenance of the older vehicles is a big drain on resources, and so they have to draw the line somewhere... its just a tough pill to swallow when you're the wrong side of that line....

"It does not take a rocket scientist if there are schematics."

Do it! With the ever increasing amount of electronics on these cars (and the information on those electronics jealously guarded), it is the enthusiasts that will keep these cars ticking along in 20, 30, 40 years time.

Chris.

apicia 05-11-2010 07:10 PM

Wow, I was just informed this has been an issue since 2007! In the grand scheme of things, the expense to fix it is a small price to pay to keep 99-04 Saleen owners happy. Seriously, what company does not rely on repeat customers? These owners are a large subset of the people that are excited about the new offerings and appreciate and made Saleen is what it is.

apicia 05-11-2010 07:14 PM

Jim D'vorak, where are you? If there is a list of people that need their 99-04 clusters flashed, please put me on it!

Dave 05-11-2010 07:20 PM

Dave Rivard and Jess Albright are my friends. I'm sure DR meant well when he typed your inquiry note.

If DR continues to "cyberbully," I guess we can place him in timeout. Though... some tend to believe Jim and I are the only "cyberbullies" here.

Good luck with your cluster adventure(s)! :smile:

Jess Albright 05-11-2010 07:30 PM

The machine to flash the clusters was damaged while in California. When it was looked into to find out what it would cost to repair it, it was something like $15,000. It would be hard to ever recover that money. At the time the management decided it wasn't worth it. I don't currently know where the machine is, I will look into it. There is no "firmware" the machine manually adjusts "Calibrates" each needle individually. Simco even looked into making a machine to do the same thing and decided it would cost way to much to do, they make the face and wanted to offer it with their name on it as a 200 mph cluster, but that never happened.
I heard Tony on the phone, and I don't believe he was rude by any means. He repeatedly said that we couldn't perform the service. You have to understand, you are on the other end basically offering money for service, if there was a way for us to do it we would.
Again, I will try to locate the machine and see where we can take it from there.

Thank you
Jess

apicia 05-11-2010 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave (Post 37625)
Dave Rivard and Jess Albright are my friends. I'm sure DR meant well when he typed your inquiry note.

If DR continues to "cyberbully," I guess we can place him in timeout. Though... some tend to believe Jim and I are the only "cyberbullies" here.

Good luck with your cluster adventure(s)! :smile:

It was not an inquiry... It was someone offended at me reporting my results of an interaction with Saleen and told me where to put it. He knew my name and must of thought my only interaction was via email, not the actual phone call to a specific tech assist extension given to me by a senior Ford tech.

EDIT: Sorry, posted after Jess's response. I guess MJ has the calibration machine?

apicia 05-11-2010 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess Albright (Post 37626)
The machine to flash the clusters was damaged while in California. When it was looked into to find out what it would cost to repair it, it was something like $15,000. It would be hard to ever recover that money. At the time the management decided it wasn't worth it. I don't currently know where the machine is, I will look into it. There is no "firmware" the machine manually adjusts "Calibrates" each needle individually. Simco even looked into making a machine to do the same thing and decided it would cost way to much to do, they make the face and wanted to offer it with their name on it as a 200 mph cluster, but that never happened.
I heard Tony on the phone, and I don't believe he was rude by any means. He repeatedly said that we couldn't perform the service. You have to understand, you are on the other end basically offering money for service, if there was a way for us to do it we would.
Again, I will try to locate the machine and see where we can take it from there.

Thank you
Jess

Sorry Jess, never meant to say he was rude. Just meant he wanted to end the conversation. I had talked to many people that day that were willing to help. A tech over at Simco talked with me for a while and tried to let me know what the deal was. Tony was not rude, but rather not as willing to disclose any information other than, "we just can't help you." I just wanted to know the facts about why they couldn't so I could report back to Saleen forums.

Jess Albright 05-11-2010 07:40 PM

To Tony's defense, he didn't know. He's not a tech, he is a sales rep. so he simply didn't know the answer, I was on another line when he was talking to you, otherwise I would have had him transfer you to me. I apologize if he came across like that.

Thank you
Jess

apicia 05-11-2010 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess Albright (Post 37626)
The machine to flash the clusters was damaged while in California. When it was looked into to find out what it would cost to repair it, it was something like $15,000. It would be hard to ever recover that money. At the time the management decided it wasn't worth it. I don't currently know where the machine is, I will look into it. There is no "firmware" the machine manually adjusts "Calibrates" each needle individually. Simco even looked into making a machine to do the same thing and decided it would cost way to much to do, they make the face and wanted to offer it with their name on it as a 200 mph cluster, but that never happened.
I heard Tony on the phone, and I don't believe he was rude by any means. He repeatedly said that we couldn't perform the service. You have to understand, you are on the other end basically offering money for service, if there was a way for us to do it we would.
Again, I will try to locate the machine and see where we can take it from there.

Thank you
Jess

Each of the 6 gauges has the same analog servo motor. They can't be flashed. They are controlled by the cluster microcontroller and told how much to sweep (50%, 75%, etc.). The controller is configured to match the overlay or gauge values. The controller would need to be recalibrated or reflashed. There must be some sort of firmware.

Ford has a microcontrollers for the V6 (120 mph speedo), GT (150 mph speedo), Cobra (160 mph speedo), Mach 1 (150? mph speedo), etc. I am not sure if these are different microprocessors or the same microcontroller flashed with differing firmware. If it is firmware, Ford should be able to flash the microprocessor if they had the firmware.

http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/2003HECBack01.jpg

Werecow 05-12-2010 10:26 AM

Is this damaged machine only used for the new edge gauges?

Greg Wackett 05-12-2010 01:25 PM

Sorry I am late responing as a couple of you guys asked me to do, I have a sick 2 year old at home.

I did do some research and as Jess indicated the tool was broken several years ago, and the previous owners of Saleen (not during Steves running of the company) decided not to fix it. When SPV made the purchase they recved the broken tool. From a business perspective I can see why they have not invested the money in fixing it, however as an owner of a 2001 it does concern me. The good thing is we know where the tool is and with time hopefully they will find a more effective way to fix they tool or another method of calibrating.

As for how SPV acted or respondied to you it is difficult for me to comment on that since I was not part of the conversation. I will add that if any of the guys at SPV can help they will and have many times in the past. I know a couple of them personally and they turely understand our passion for the cars and don't like to say sorry we can't help.

Many of the decision to not fix or stock extras was done during the Plex/Hancock Park days, now we have to suffer.

apicia 05-12-2010 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Wackett (Post 37665)
Sorry I am late responing as a couple of you guys asked me to do, I have a sick 2 year old at home.

I did do some research and as Jess indicated the tool was broken several years ago, and the previous owners of Saleen (not during Steves running of the company) decided not to fix it. When SPV made the purchase they recved the broken tool. From a business perspective I can see why they have not invested the money in fixing it, however as an owner of a 2001 it does concern me. The good thing is we know where the tool is and with time hopefully they will find a more effective way to fix they tool or another method of calibrating.

As for how SPV acted or respondied to you it is difficult for me to comment on that since I was not part of the conversation. I will add that if any of the guys at SPV can help they will and have many times in the past. I know a couple of them personally and they turely understand our passion for the cars and don't like to say sorry we can't help.

Many of the decision to not fix or stock extras was done during the Plex/Hancock Park days, now we have to suffer.

There has to be a cost efficient way to fix the tool. If there are schematics, or we know the original manufacturer, we can get this fixed. The estimate to fix it in the past must be nowhere what it would cost now. The parts are cheap and prices are falling everyday.

For 15k, you can buy Deep Blue and install it in your living room. Seriously, 50" Plasmas are going for $700. I can build a high end gaming computer for less than $1500.

I was told that Ford can flash anything connected to OBDII if they have the firmware. I can't see for the life of me how this would cost 15k to fix. The parts alone would not cost that, it must be the labor someone is trying to rape. The internal components are easily 10 years old. It's not like there is an i7 or 6-core AMD processor in there.

ctann 05-12-2010 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 37670)
Seriously, 50" Plasmas are going for $700.

And thats the problem. buying a new 50" plasma is cheap - getting an existing one repaired is expensive, if not impossible. So, the trend is to ditch anything thats broken, and buy a new one... Not so easy if the machine you are talking about is obsolete though...

I have a little motorised curtain opener in my house, that burned out one small plastic gear. Sounds like that would be an easy fix for a handy guy, right? Well, it turns out that small plastic gears of exactly the right size are pretty darned hard to come by. I did find one company who would make me a replacement gear. Their quote? $2000 for one gear. If I bough 1000 gears, the price came down to about $10 a piece. Its the economy of scale that makes these things cheap. So, I am working on fabricating my own gear, which is also not as easy as it sounds - and will probably cost me more (if I count time and effort) than just replacing the entire device. But then again, I'm a bit stubborn like that! :tongue:

Chris.

apicia 05-12-2010 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess Albright (Post 37629)
To Tony's defense, he didn't know. He's not a tech, he is a sales rep. so he simply didn't know the answer, I was on another line when he was talking to you, otherwise I would have had him transfer you to me. I apologize if he came across like that.

Thank you
Jess

Hey Jess, Spring over at SMS says that if MJ is unwilling to fix the device, send it to her at SMS and they will look into fixing it for the 99-04 owners. It's nice to know that 99-04 Saleen owners might be taken care of ;)

Werecow 05-13-2010 12:24 PM

Hey, why don't we all pass a hat and throw a couple of bucks in each to have the thing repaired. Then Saleen can recalibrate are guages for free and we just pay shipping...lol

I gotta wonder how many of these gauges are out there that will need re-calibrating. Not only that, but are there any replacements floating around for the ones that may go bad. This calibration issue is just the tip of the iceberg really. For the older Saleens, what is there for replacement parts? You can't get seat covers for the Fox-bodies, origianl body parts are getting rarer by the day, and it doesn't appear there is anyone out there to fill this niche in the market place.

Is this the new Saleen's fault or problem? Not really... but it is still an issue I don't see getting resolved any time soon as many of the molds an stuff are simply not around any more, not to mention possible licensing issues for creating replacement parts.

It is nice of SMS to say that they would look into repairing the item, but what about the rest of parts and servicing issues for older cars?

apicia 05-13-2010 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Werecow (Post 37752)
Hey, why don't we all pass a hat and throw a couple of bucks in each to have the thing repaired. Then Saleen can recalibrate are guages for free and we just pay shipping...lol

I gotta wonder how many of these gauges are out there that will need re-calibrating. Not only that, but are there any replacements floating around for the ones that may go bad. This calibration issue is just the tip of the iceberg really. For the older Saleens, what is there for replacement parts? You can't get seat covers for the Fox-bodies, origianl body parts are getting rarer by the day, and it doesn't appear there is anyone out there to fill this niche in the market place.

Is this the new Saleen's fault or problem? Not really... but it is still an issue I don't see getting resolved any time soon as many of the molds an stuff are simply not around any more, not to mention possible licensing issues for creating replacement parts.

It is nice of SMS to say that they would look into repairing the item, but what about the rest of parts and servicing issues for older cars?

I saw a nice 04 Saleen SC on eBay and I didn't buy it because it had a GT cluster in it. I thought something was fishy, now I know why it was in there. I would have bought that car!

apicia 05-15-2010 11:23 AM

Any updates?

ctann 05-15-2010 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 37837)
Any updates?

Who are you waiting for an update from?

Chris.

Dave 05-15-2010 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 37837)
Any updates?

You will have to simply file this grievance. At the moment, nothing will change with regards to repair. You will have to locate a functioning replacement New Edge Saleen cluster.

apicia 05-16-2010 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctann (Post 37848)
Who are you waiting for an update from?

Chris.

Jess was going to get some info on the device. MJ is just going to let it sit there broken? We have several interested in fixing it, including Spring at SMS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave
You will have to locate a functioning replacement New Edge Saleen cluster.

That is impossible. How many New Edge Saleen clusters are out there? None.

Any cluster will suffice, as you can transfer the module over. It is the microcontroller that is needed. The microcontroller tells the analog gauges how much to sweep.

Seems to me that there are several companies interested in obtaining the device and have it fixed. Instead, Saleen owners get the shaft because the person that owns the broken device does not want to fix it? Hope he has a change of heart. Don't see why not?

2007? 2008? 2009? 2010?

Dave 05-16-2010 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 37892)
Jess was going to get some info on the device. MJ is just going to let it sit there broken? We have several interested in fixing it, including Spring at SMS.

Jess could be attending the drag races. Or attending something personal.

apicia 05-16-2010 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave (Post 37902)
Jess could be attending the drag races. Or attending something personal.

It is the weekend...

apicia 05-23-2010 04:36 PM

This situation is troublesome. I need a solution. Worst case scenario, I install an overlay type of kit on a GT cluster. Simco has a nice one (silver series), but they are out of stock.

I am not about to install a Cobra (SVT), Mach 1, or GT cluster. That is just cheasy. Autometer used to sell clusters (made by Simco), but they are discontinued. I just want a **** cluster that reflects actual speed and rpms. The mileage is uneffected by this issue. I am using a GPS for a speedometer right now, ugh...

Greg Wackett 05-25-2010 02:25 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=110536623105

apicia 05-25-2010 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Wackett (Post 38396)

Can the dealership match the mileage of the car or will I be stuck with the new cluster's mileage after it is married to the PCM?

Greg Wackett 05-25-2010 03:23 PM

I don't know, check with your DMV or local dealership.

apicia 05-25-2010 03:26 PM

Just talked to a senior tech over at Ford. It seems that all clusters come to Ford non-programmed. Ford then uploads that calibration to the cluster depending on whether it is a V6, Mach 1, Cobra, etc. So.... the microcontroller can be flashed.

Again, the problem is that Saleen owners need the firmware. If we had the firmware, Ford could flash it to the microcontroller. Saleen's device is broken, but if they would release the firmware... this would not be an issue.

Stang281 05-25-2010 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apicia (Post 38400)
Just talked to a senior tech over at Ford. It seems that all clusters come to Ford non-programmed. Ford then uploads that calibration to the cluster depending on whether it is a V6, Mach 1, Cobra, etc. So.... the microcontroller can be flashed.

Again, the problem is that Saleen owners need the firmware. If we had the firmware, Ford could flash it to the microcontroller. Saleen's device is broken, but if they would release the firmware... this would not be an issue.

So that means an overlay on a GT cluster would be able to be flashed with no problems? If thats the case it's still going to be tough because Saleen does not make the overlays anymore.

2FNFAST 05-26-2010 04:51 AM

Pretty sure getting an overlay is not a problem.... This calibration issue however, needs to be addressed!

apicia 05-26-2010 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stang281 (Post 38431)
So that means an overlay on a GT cluster would be able to be flashed with no problems? If thats the case it's still going to be tough because Saleen does not make the overlays anymore.

Yea, all the clusters are the same. The cluster is the back half with the electronics and micro controller. The front half is the module, it contains the analog servos and gauges.

If your Saleen cluster goes bad, you can separate the module from the cluster and put it on another cluster. The problem is the new cluster will have no calibration or calibration from a GT or whatever it came out of (if used).

Either way, if you Saleen cluster goes bad, you put the module (gauge faces and servo motors) on any replacement cluster. Then have Ford mate it with your PCM. The only problem is we don't have the firmware from Saleen to throw into the microcontroller.

Stang281 05-26-2010 01:47 PM

I'm not sure on how it works but since ford can calibrate the clusters and you use just the gauge face overlay using the GT servo's couldn't ford then calibrate them to work with the overlay? That's what I was thinking with my first post but I don't know it the saleen servos have to go with the overlay or if the problem is still that ford can't calibrate the GT cluster to hit 200mph.


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