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2005-2009 Saleen Mustang For all S281, S302, H281 and H302 models based on the Ford S-197 Mustang platform, with the exception of the S302 PJ (see below). Be sure to specify year, model and equipment if asking for help. |
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Saleen 8 rib conversion & SC pulley sizing? - 2006 S281 Extreme
Hey guys, my first post on SOEC (am a member though)
Ok this may be a ridiculous question to ask you considering the extensive research i've done and people i've talked to but maybe you guys have some better insight/ideas. I have an 06 saleen extreme. I purchased an 8 rib conversion kit for the car, and the MO saleen kit to help belt slip issues. I was unaware at the time that stock Extremes come with a 2.87" pulley when i thought it came with a 3.0". The pulley system i bought came w/ the Thump Racing 2.95" pulley. I have figured that i've lost about 1 lb of boost, but my tuner thinks it is only about a 10hp max loss, i disagree. I have been told by Jim Jr. over at JDM that because of the backspacing on the 8 rib pulley, nothing smaller than a 2.95 fits unless you grind the SC snout down about the thickness of a penny all the way around. This is not recommended by anyone and these pulleys apparently cannot be ground down either due to the pulley falling apart under load after. My question is, is there a company that makes a smaller 8 rib than 2.95 with a different design that possibly works? i know Reicher Racing makes some but i was unable to get a hold of them. Any other E owners have similar issues as me? i would like to go with a 2.7 as i am not seeing the numbers that every other E owner apparently makes. Car runs great on the street though, i whomp on 03-04 cobras making 480-520 and i barly lost to an 04 whippled cobra making 591, but im only seeing 490 @ 15 psi. The car has the 281 in it and most likely has low compression, but i have reports from other E owners with same setup as me making 480+ on a MUSTANG dyno (without fudged numbers) and 530-560+ on dynojet, (fluctuation depends car to car). 490?....im stuck in s281 SUPERCHARGED territory! PS - 8 rib didnt help belt slip, but im 1k into the kit and dont know what to do with it. MO saleen kit did help, but i still have belt slip, however, i need to replace the belt as it has been stretched. thanks for your help guys! |
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Welcome, and those of us stuck in Supercharged territory feel your pain. :)
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Michael '07-0449 S281 SC Coupe - 1 of 1 as optioned |
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It wouldnt be a problem if every other E owner was making my numbers...but they are making 550 rwhp range...and im not |
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My thoughts...
Stock E-Cars do not make 550 rwhp. They are more often in the 480-500 rwhp. 550hp was spec at the fly wheel.
Concerning the pulley sizes, I am currently running a 2.95 with an Innovators West 10% overdrive crank pulley with 8 ribs. To get 550 rwhp, you could match my set up. I also have 60lb injectors, Fore Fuel Rails and GT 500 pumps. Combined with Long Tube headers and an X-pipe my numbers are 552 rwhp with 91 Octane. You can see my car being dynoed with JDM HERE. Dont get to caught up in the number game. Really what you want to ask yourself are two things. First, regardless of numbers, are you comfortable with how fast the car drives (in other words, do you really need more horsepower)? The second question is concernig the car: Is it running smoothly and responding as expected? With these two questions and answers the numbers really dont matter. Dynos exist to measure a cars internals and management systems, we just do some math to figure out how much power is being transferred into the ground. Concerning belt slip I have no black powder remnants in the engine bay leading me to think that the configuration is holding. What do you think?
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I have 8 Rib with 2.95 sc pulley and MO saleen kit (idler relocation for more belt wrap), with innovative west 15% lower. **what size belt are you running?? (mine still slips, and i have black powder all over my engine bay).** I too have upgraded spark plugs, 60lb injectors, custom tune, steeda lca's (traction), ect... I am made 497 with O/R H, but sounded nasty so they were able to get it to 490 without it (only 7 hp loss). Guys i talk to (like yourself) are seeing 520 range with MY set up (not stock E). STOCK NUMBERS ON THE SAME DYNO, My car made 1 spiked run at 486, then solid 456 after s/c got hot (assuming some timing loss). Now with tune and all the mods listed above, 490? i should be making a little more i think. It is an 06 and does not have upgraded heat exchanger. usually runs at about 150 degrees normal night/normal driving. To answer your questions: 1) no the car is not fast enough 2) car runs GREAT and respons well, but it always has... it feels a little faster than stock, but nothing crazy. Seems to be a little more tempermental to weather conditions... You're probably thinking that i didnt do that much to gain that much power, but i was expecting major gains just from replacing the s*%t tune that Saleen locks down like its some ungodly awesomness lol. PS - my car is not starving for fuel, what is the purpose of GT500 fuel pumps and fuel rails? sounds novelty to me...no? |
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15-16 psi...what RWHP did you see? and on what kind of dyno? 2.95 because we went to 8 rib over stock 6 rib. 8 rib makes the pulley wider INSIDE which covers more of the supercharger...the snout of the supercharger is huge on these blowers, so nothing smaller than 2.95 fits in 8 rib. (im thinking about going back to 6 rib) |
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I saw 490 whp on a Clayton dyno (reads about 7% lower than a dynojet) before the IW crank pulley, Mosaleen idler system, and 60lb flow matched injectors. I should see 520+whp or so on the Clayton after i figure out the IAT issue and that should be good for at least 550-560whp on a dynojet. |
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As far as your numbers go, you seem to have the components to get where you want to be. What were the tuner’s main concerns while the car was on the dyno? Do you have any exhaust modifications? And one more thought on the matter is that you could of had a bad batch of fuel. What octane level is your E-Car tuned for? Last edited by ExtrmStang#67; 08-25-2010 at 05:15 PM. Reason: composition |
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Tuned for 93, never ran anything lower in through the car. oh, i forgot to mention, i also have the saleen extreme ultimate CAI! My tuner did not recommend fuel rails nor fuel pumps, he said the car is fine. HOWEVER, he made a ton of pulls because he had a hard time working with the 900 hp maf that came in the CAI, but he would make changes like pull fuel and add spark, which he would normally expect to see 10 hp gains, and the car would actually LOOSE power. I dont think that would be fuel related because a) it doesnt fall on its face anywhere, and b) he said the car is not starving for fuel. |
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Looks like our questions and concerns have been ironed out and from what I can tell you research and time exhausted. I would like to see JDM come in and ask some educated questions which leads me to ask, how many tuners have dynoed the car?
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Great, looking forward to your response. I think we've spoke before about production numbers, we have the same cars and we are 1 of 4 (tungsten/glass roof combo), im 0132. You have a few more mods than me...if you make 540, then i know what i need to do with the car. On a side note, how do you like the American Racing Headers? Are you running ARH off road H or ARH high flow cats? if you are running high flows, could you direct me to a youtube video of your car? I dont want something obnoxiuos even though all the ARH/Saleen setups are nice. I dont understand why all the E owners do this though, my tuner said my a/f is perfectly fine and the car still has left-over fuel in the tune...so they ARE beneficial? there's now possible ways to see more power with them right? However, where did you get your GT500 fuel pumps? do you buy 2 of the same pump, or is there a twin kit? |
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My extreme is 2006 139 of 153. No glass roof though but is Tungsten, and came with rear wing delete and silver 7 spoke wheels. I really like the ARH setup and fitment, mine is the 1 5/8" primaries and hi-flow cats. I do not have a video up of the car yet. It does have some rasp to it and i blame that on the quad exit exhaust that Saleen put on there. I think that it is a restriction and i want to get rid of those mufflers soon and just have it come out of the 2 dumps and weld in the center for looks. When you get past 500whp the pumps in the 2006 extreme and the 39lb injectors are insufficient. Plus not to mention that the twin pumps in the 06 extreme are from maybe a Saleen focus or something, they are dark green and one of mine was failing so that is why i changed them out. During tuning you could see the fuel pressure was bouncing back and forth and was not going up steadily so i swapped them out for the GT500 setup through the shop that tunes and puts all the parts on my car, B&D Racing in Van Nuys CA. |
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Reichard Racing makes setups for saleen blowers, but they dont have anythying smaller than a 3" for saleen. He did say to call back in a couple weeks because they have a design they are working on that will allow for as small as a 2.85 pulley in an 8 rib that will work on the saleen by making some changes to how the pulley is designed. |
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Roe Racing makes pullies for their supercharger which is not an SRT product, it is a custom made unit with an off the shelf Lysholm supercharger. The same Lyshalm series superchargerthat Saleen uses in their Series VI. Roe uses the larger 3300cc unit versus the Saleen 2300cc but the snout on both units are the same. Still havent had a chance to check to see if the Roe unit is an 8 rib so this may all be a mute point but still wanted to clarify.
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FYI: Attached is a drawing indicating the pully sizes available through Lysholm. http://www.lysholm.us/pdf/extension.pdf |
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PS - i just got off the phone with Brenspeed and they told me that something is wrong because guys with a 3.2" pulley and no crank pulley are making 520-530 @ 10-12 psi. he said if you're running a 2.95 and making 15 psi, you should be making WAY more power. maybe smaller pulley isnt my answer here! |
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the six rib 3.2 pulley i had on my stock motor made 14.07 psi boost with the stock crank pulley. i made to be exact 485rwhp and 460rwtq. My mods were extreme intake, 60lb injectors, GT500 pumps, HTO plugs, off road x pipe. For my new set-up (built long block) I'am going with the GI joe 8 rib kit w/ 2.95 pulley and IW 10% and em expecting to see great gains!
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I was told that it peaked boost in the upper RPM range, kind of made me nervous being that it was the stock bottom end and all but they assured me i was fine because i had the fuel system and larger injectors (even advised me that i had enough fuel for a 3.0 pulley if i wanted; lol) Well my motor finally gave out on me, i shoot 5 rods thru the block and bent 10 valves in the heads. There is no reason with those mods you should be seeing such little power!
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most people I encounter in Socal can't say enough good stuff about Danny from Swanson Performance in Torrance. Supposedely he even travels to put on clinics. I've had alot of reputable local shops refer him. When I'm ready he will tune my new 3.2 set-up
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im beating my head against the wall, and it sounds like the other 06 E guys is too! |
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sorry to hear that, i suggest brenspeed if any! they are making big numbers w these cars.
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I WISH SOMEONE COULD FILL IN THIS THREAD WITH SOME ROCK SOLID, CAR SPECIFIC, KNOWLEDGE!!!! |
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JDM where are you?
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You crack me up, you've bent my ear on all these wild project ideas you have any you never end up buying anything from us, what gives?
__________________
Jason | 281 Motorsports NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505 1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped 2015 Coyote Powered F-150 Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM Email: 281motorsports@gmail.com Web: www.ProSpeedMustang.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf "Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!" |
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The lower compression ratio (8.7:1 I think it is) for the Extreme along with the ported cylinder heads are why the boost is lower. The Mustang GT with its 9.8:1 CR and it stock more restrictive heads are gonna make more boost from the same pulley.
This is a big reason why I am leaning towards a JDM 302 instead of the Brenspeed. JDMs 302 has stock CR while Brenspeed is using the Saleen supercharged shortblock CR. While the 8.7:1 is a great safety measure for boosted engines it is not needed on the modern 3V engine with its superfast PCM and knock sensors. JDMs 298 shortblocks with the stock CR have been out for years and they have alot of success with them running double digit boost and living long happy lives. |
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Jason,
no one wanted to touch long tubes so I have to learn myself. Thats what the forums are here for. If I didn't do fuel and exhaust it would have been the griggs rearend. Got inspired when I saw other novices tackle their own installs and I can save alot of money. Sorry, I never intended to waste your time. Just changed my game plan. |
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If i am at 15 PSI now and i DIDNT have ported heads, i would see 18 PSI. I have a buddy with a 2010 GT that brenspeed built. He has the same setup as me except he has longtubes, off road mid, supercharger cams, 10% crank (mines a 15%) and the 3.2" pulley. He makes 520 @ 10-12 psi. If he put ported heads on his car, he would only see 7-9 psi. If he put the 2.95 thats on my car, he would see well into the 600 range but his lowerend (stock) couldnt handle it right?!?!? <--edited if thats the case, ported heads only make sense if i was seeing low boost, but im not seeing low boost and the boost # isnt even the issue, its the RWHP #. If he is making 520 with his setup, i should see 540+ with mine (600+ if i added longtubes/off road mid/supercharger cams). Im telling you guys, theres something wrong! Supercharged guys that buy the stage 3 kit are making 490 with the 3.2 pulley. and yes, where are you JDM? i've spoke to them before regarding this and they told me that i am right where i should be, but I WANT TO KNOW WHY BECAUSE COMPARITIVELY, THIS DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. Last edited by s281eguy; 09-10-2010 at 01:36 PM. Reason: after "right" that's not a question lol, its a statement. |
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I wouldnt mind giving the car back to Donny Walsh for some tweaking, then next summer take it to Brenspeed for a second tune just to see how it runs. The only issue is i have Diablo Sport in it now and Brenspeed is SCT. I guess i will just have 2 programmers and maybe it will be easy for me to alternate tunes if i want. PS - where and what do you guys purchase for "twin gt500 fuel pumps"? I think am going to order a bunch of parts and have them all installed and the car re-tuned before winter hits. |
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Info
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Ford Racing Product Page (I am not sure if there are variations of this kit)
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now that i think about it...i think i remember them telling me they changed fuel pumps for one of the many problems i had the car there for. |
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__________________
Jason | 281 Motorsports NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505 1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped 2015 Coyote Powered F-150 Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM Email: 281motorsports@gmail.com Web: www.ProSpeedMustang.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf "Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!" |
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Yes I saw something near the spare tire, what would I be looking for so that I know?
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Take a picture and email it to me.
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Jason | 281 Motorsports NO PM'S - PLEASE CALL | 714-575-1505 1996 Cobra Vortech SC / Track prepped 2015 Coyote Powered F-150 Check out our facility promo video here: http://bit.ly/1yHNfxM Email: 281motorsports@gmail.com Web: www.ProSpeedMustang.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/mustangperformance Youtube: http://bit.ly/1zOxanf "Doing the job right...is the ONLY option we offer!" |
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You're basically looking for two of the same part. Right below where the taillight assembly is you should see a black box. About a two feet over, there should be a second, identical black box with some wiring. The second box is the driver for the second fuel pump.
I'm stealing from another forum here but it would look like this: The drivers are the black boxes with the big wiring harnesses coming out of them. Ignore the red box, I think that was the Boost-a-pump he was replacing. |
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Last edited by s281eguy; 09-16-2010 at 06:49 PM. |
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Looks just like my 2005 that I added JDM's GT 500 twin pumps, all but the light green with dark green strip wires tied together. Mine has light blue with dark blue strips tied together.
You might send Jim Jr. III at JDM Engineering your picture and see if he has any ideas they have install a tune of these and 2006 and 2007 they were the SpeedLab for Saleen, he may have an idea on how to tell if you have the GT 500 pumps or the stock Focus fuel pumps. I have heard that the Focus fuel pumps are green in color, not for sure, but you take the rear seat out and on the drivers side you will see the fuel hat. You use a screwdriver and hammer and light taps spin the ring off. Unhook the wire clip plug and then you can lift fuel pump enough to see the pumps without having to take them out completly. Call Jim Jr. first... Scott
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2005 S/C #10 Press Car w/ Scenic Roof 3.20 S/C Pulley & 18% overdrive Crank Mosaleen S/C no slip idler system 3:73 gears, Watts link Gen II 14" front brakes, slotted rear rotors Brenspeed 302, 47lb inj, longtubes/ catted H-pipe 570 rwhp 545 rwtq (SAE) 13.5 lbs boost, Afco heat exchanger F-5 Joplin Mo. Tornado surviour 5-22-11. |
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Scott, you're making 495 with a 3.2? did you buy a saleen supercharged or a GT and add the saleen blower? what other mods do you have besides whats listed? you and i might make some good comparisons if you purchased a s/c saleen. If you bought a GT or dropped a motor in the car, then we can assume its compression! |
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Extreme CAI, GT 500 dual fuel pumps, ported upper lid, stock T/B (62mm T/B made to much power put stock T/B back on), 39 lb inj. tricked out(JMS), Afco heat exchanger, Spec 2+ clutch, MOSALEEN plate idler system, 3.20 S/C pulley, V-10 water pump pulley, Gates Green strip belt K061066, Pypes X-pipe, Equal length headers Mac/s, SCT X Cal. 3 tuner 91-93-104 octane tunes, Pro-50 shifter, 3:73 gears, Watts link II, Shelby 500 lower control arms, It has the stock 3-V motor no forged internals. Im living on the edge.... Hoping to get it pulled out this winter and made into 302 forged motor. Those no's are dyno jet dynos so it really made on a mustang dyno 448 whp - 412 wtq. There is a conversion tabel you can use to convert from mustang dyno to dyno jet and thats all I did. 450 whp is all I wanted to go to dont want to thorough a rod out or anything else..LOL. AT 12 1/4 lbs boost.
This is the 2005 S/C Saleen #10 Press car, Carlos Duran built both press cars this year #01 SEMA car show and mine 2nd #10 (he just reversed the 01 to 10 on the 2nd press car built. It was the first Saleen to get the Glass Roof.
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2005 S/C #10 Press Car w/ Scenic Roof 3.20 S/C Pulley & 18% overdrive Crank Mosaleen S/C no slip idler system 3:73 gears, Watts link Gen II 14" front brakes, slotted rear rotors Brenspeed 302, 47lb inj, longtubes/ catted H-pipe 570 rwhp 545 rwtq (SAE) 13.5 lbs boost, Afco heat exchanger F-5 Joplin Mo. Tornado surviour 5-22-11. |
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A friend of mine has a 10 GT built by brenspeed making 520 with the stock lower end. What do ou mean by "39 lb inj. tricked out(JMS)" |
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I sent my 39lb inj. to Johnsons motor sports and had them match flow them and they do something to make them flow close to 42lb inj.
Being the press car I just want to be able to put everything back to original if someone wants that down the road, if I ever sale. Ive had a hard time deciding on going with forged internals 302 but I dont think anyone would get upset knowing the internals are better then a stock 3-V. Im also thinking about the Extreme S 281 thats what was truly the motor in Saleens in my and 06 years. Flip a coin. LOL
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2005 S/C #10 Press Car w/ Scenic Roof 3.20 S/C Pulley & 18% overdrive Crank Mosaleen S/C no slip idler system 3:73 gears, Watts link Gen II 14" front brakes, slotted rear rotors Brenspeed 302, 47lb inj, longtubes/ catted H-pipe 570 rwhp 545 rwtq (SAE) 13.5 lbs boost, Afco heat exchanger F-5 Joplin Mo. Tornado surviour 5-22-11. |
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