HP per dollar & other ruminations

Foghorn · #1 12-01-2008

As delivered, the PJ puts down approximately 340hp & Q at the wheels.

At $9k installed, the supershaker 435 kit is right at 95 bucks per pony. The 475HP upgrade ($10k installed) is a slightly better deal at just over $74 per pony. Those figures are not including taxes, vehicle delivery, hotels, etc.

This doesn't factor in that the PJ engine isn't really suited for supercharging, what with the high static CR (starting with a lower CR = bigger gains from adding the supercharger).

Also, the supercharger and related hardware is 100lbs - up high and in front. Not exactly the best case for a nose-heavy car.

Several engine builders offer ported 3V cylinder heads . Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords recently profiled the work of Livernois Motorsports: their stage 3 heads with the stock cams made 420 hp (6100) & 354 lbs-ft Q (5100) - that's with long-tube headers. That is a 100 hp / 40 lbs-ft improvement over the stock heads. How much of an improvement are these heads versus the PJ heads (I know that Saleen ports the heads on the PJ - but how much, and what are the flow numbers?)? The LM heads have larger valves and flow 300/285 cfm intake and exhaust.

How do the PJ cams compare to the stock cams? I am betting that the majority of the 400 horses and 390 lbs-ft is in the Saleen tune (not much difference bwtn stock cams and PJ cams). Improving the hardware has to have serious potential.

Increasing the max hp and Q is easy, but keeping the area under the curve while doing so is more of a challenge (w/o supercharging!). Assuming there is a head/cam combo out there that could get the PJ to 400 rwhp and keep the area under the Q curve where it is (at the least!) - heads, cams, headers would run about $5k, which is 84 bucks /pony.

What about just yanking the whole engine and selling it - oil pan to intake and water pump to flywheel - and replacing it with one of Techco's low compression 302s? assuming you could get 8 - 10k for a used PJ engine and the new engine and blower for 20-22k, you're looking at 12-14k for 620 rwhp (est.). That works out to 50 bucks per pony!!! Assuming you've got 14k lying around ("chicken**** money" - Big Enos Burdette)!! Of course, you do lose the numbered block that came with your PJ....

Thoughts?

pacettr · #2 12-04-2008

The CR isn't as high as advertised.

You won't get 8-10k for a PJ engine.

The heads are basically just "cleaned up".

The cams are relatively mild.

I am getting a Supershaker. It has a serialized plaque in addition to being registered with Saleen as a SC PJ. Tough to beat, and JDM can help you with more hp/$.

FWIW, I believe a complete top-end package (heads, cams, etc) could indeed yield 400+ rwhp...

orange04s281 · #3 12-04-2008

there is no 435 hp supershaker kit(there is a upgrade kit for the 435 but that costs more than the 475 supershaker upgrade because it would require injectors, etc.) and the pj supershaker kit is different than the standard supershaker. The pj supershaker uses very little boost and makes very good power. I think that it is a very good upgrade and I would expect that every one that gets one should be extremely happy with it.

pacettr · #4 12-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

there is no 435 hp supershaker kit(there is a upgrade kit for the 435 but that costs more than the 475 supershaker upgrade because it would require injectors, etc.) and the pj supershaker kit is different than the standard supershaker. The pj supershaker uses very little boost and makes very good power. I think that it is a very good upgrade and I would expect that every one that gets one should be extremely happy with it.

That too. The PJ kit is rated at 500.

Foghorn · #5 12-05-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by pacettr

That too. The PJ kit is rated at 500.

The last time I did any research on the supershaker it was still being finalized (June 08 timeframe), I will be the first to admit that my gouge may be outdated....

I want to ensure that we are all comparing the same numbers: is the PJ supershaker rating 500 rwhp or at the flywheel? 500hp at the flywheel is approximately 425 at the wheels (utilizing the std 15% driveline loss), hence my reference to the 435hp supershaker kit.

From what I understand, the 475 hp upgrade kit consists of a tune, bigger injectors, and a smaller driven pulley.

I appreciate the clarification - makes my decision a bit easier.

pacettr · #6 12-05-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foghorn

The last time I did any research on the supershaker it was still being finalized (June 08 timeframe), I will be the first to admit that my gouge may be outdated....

I want to ensure that we are all comparing the same numbers: is the PJ supershaker rating 500 rwhp or at the flywheel? 500hp at the flywheel is approximately 425 at the wheels (utilizing the std 15% driveline loss), hence my reference to the 435hp supershaker kit.

From what I understand, the 475 hp upgrade kit consists of a tune, bigger injectors, and a smaller driven pulley.

I appreciate the clarification - makes my decision a bit easier.

All of their kits are rated at the fw. The PJ kit comes with bigger injectors, and a LARGER pulley (to limit power on the PJ).

The 435 SS kit is designed as an addition to the earlier Saleen supercharger kits that were rated at 435. They had a larger pulley and didn't include larger injectors.

The 475 kit is the updated 435 kit. Smaller pulley, injectors, mass air.

The Supershaker can be bought as a COMPLETE kit (blower, shaker, all necessary hardware) or as an add-on kit for those who already have a Saleen blower (shaker, hardware).

orange04s281 · #7 12-15-2008

whether you are upgrading a 435 kit or 475 kit with a supershaker the end result will be the same, the ss to upgrade the 435 kit comes with injectors and the ss upgrade for the 475 kit doesnt. but both of the ss kits come with the same pulley and tune. the pj ss kit also comes with injectors and a larger pulley. the limiting threshold on both kits is the fuel system. higher hp kits with a fuel system are possibly in the works

pacettr · #8 12-16-2008

The limiting threshold is the maf and trans

orange04s281 · #9 12-17-2008

the maf is not an issue with the supershaker. yes it is the stock maf but it is in a much larger housing(even larger than the saleen cold air). A 302E with a supershaker is only about 3/4 of the way through the maf votage. But yes the clutch and trans are limiting factors as well.

pacettr · #10 12-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

the maf is not an issue with the supershaker. yes it is the stock maf but it is in a much larger housing(even larger than the saleen cold air). A 302E with a supershaker is only about 3/4 of the way through the maf votage. But yes the clutch and trans are limiting factors as well.

It will limit mine...

orange04s281 · #11 12-17-2008

well if you dont mind me asking what have you done to your car and what kind of hp numbers do you have. Im assuming jdm tuned your car, what kind of airflow numbers are you seeing?

pacettr · #12 12-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

well if you dont mind me asking what have you done to your car and what kind of hp numbers do you have. Im assuming jdm tuned your car, what kind of airflow numbers are you seeing?

I will have a 3.2 pulley, Kooks lt's, o/r h-pipe.

Hoping for mid 500's at the wheels on 91 octane...

orange04s281 · #13 12-17-2008

the 302E runs about that same hp and it only uses about 3/4 of the mass air voltage, you wont need to upgrade your maf sensor with your current set up

edit: the 302E with a super shaker^

pacettr · #14 12-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

the 302E runs about that same hp and it only uses about 3/4 of the mass air voltage, you wont need to upgrade your maf sensor with your current set up

I have been informed otherwise, but we shall see...

I was under the impression that the E had a larger housing and/or upgraded sensor...

orange04s281 · #15 12-17-2008

The E does have an upgrade maf and housing but the housing in the supershaker is even bigger than that

pacettr · #16 12-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

The E does have an upgrade maf and housing but the housing in the supershaker is even bigger than that

...but the sensor is not.

orange04s281 · #17 12-18-2008

no the sensor is not changed but when you increase the size of the housing and recalibrate the pcm. lets put it this way the stock sensor in the new maf housing is capable of reading up to 95 lbs per minute of air. The s302E with a supershaker has 620 crank hp and only uses a max of 72 lbs per minute of air. So unless u are pushing around 800 hp you dont need to upgrade your mass air in the supershaker.

pacettr · #18 12-18-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

no the sensor is not changed but when you increase the size of the housing and recalibrate the pcm. lets put it this way the stock sensor in the new maf housing is capable of reading up to 95 lbs per minute of air. The s302E with a supershaker has 620 crank hp and only uses a max of 72 lbs per minute of air. So unless u are pushing around 800 hp you dont need to upgrade your mass air in the supershaker.

Then I would be curious as to why the E has a different sensor...

orange04s281 · #19 12-18-2008

the saleen air box and stock sensor was not enough for the 302E. so for the H302SC saleen decided to use the saleen airbox with a hard intake tube and a upgraded sensor. But the E needed better airflow so saleen designed the cold air, the housing they used was a little over 100mm and used a different style sensor so it was needed to have a upgraded sensor because even if the stock sensor would fit the housing wouldnt be large enough. The super shaker has about a 120mm mass air housing which gives the stock sensor a much wider range of metering. If you increase the size of the housing you increase the range of the sensor. If you dont increase the size of the housing, like in the case of the H302SC and the 302E, then you need to increase the range of the sensor it self. I hope this helps.

pacettr · #20 12-18-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange04s281

the saleen air box and stock sensor was not enough for the 302E. so for the H302SC saleen decided to use the saleen airbox with a hard intake tube and a upgraded sensor. But the E needed better airflow so saleen designed the cold air, the housing they used was a little over 100mm and used a different style sensor so it was needed to have a upgraded sensor because even if the stock sensor would fit the housing wouldnt be large enough. The super shaker has about a 120mm mass air housing which gives the stock sensor a much wider range of metering. If you increase the size of the housing you increase the range of the sensor. If you dont increase the size of the housing, like in the case of the H302SC and the 302E, then you need to increase the range of the sensor it self. I hope this helps.

I (mostly) understand the principle, but the E DOES have a larger housing...

Bruce · #21 12-18-2008

I'm considering JDM proposal now for the SuperShaker to add to already existing mods listed below. My last dyno numbers were 360RWHP 348#FTTQ so what could I expect with the addition of the SS.
Bassani Ceramic L/T Heads
Bassani X-Pipes w/Cats
C&L Racer CAI (which will be removed for the SS)
SCT 93 Octane Tune (which will be re-porgrammed for the SS)

pacettr · #22 12-18-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce

I'm considering JDM proposal now for the SuperShaker to add to already existing mods listed below. My last dyno numbers were 360RWHP 348#FTTQ so what could I expect with the addition of the SS.
Bassani Ceramic L/T Heads
Bassani X-Pipes w/Cats
C&L Racer CAI (which will be removed for the SS)
SCT 93 Octane Tune (which will be re-porgrammed for the SS)

Based on the "stock" PJ that made 437/387 on the stock tune, I would say ~ 460/410...?